How does a high quality pot affect your tone
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ganzosrevenge
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Re: How does a high quality pot affect your tone
what makes a pot a pot is the quality of the components. You can have crappy pots with little tiny paths and tin-metal bushings that are available for $1.50, competent CTS pots for $3.99 each that are aluminum with small fingers and a decent track with a 20% tolerance either way, $8 to $12 RSGW / CTS pots that have brass bushings, heavy carbon tracks, and are built like a mix of an old CTS and old centralab, and then there's the $50 / pot alessandro stainless steel monstrosity. As you can see, pots run the gamut in build quality, and that gamut plays a big role in the ability to have nuanced changes, longevity of the potentiometer, and even your tone. A good 500k potentiometer will let a Les Paul get just the right amount of brightness out without getting shrill, will not turn so easily that you can completely throw your tone out, yet isn't so stiff you need a 8" wrench to turn it.
I myself am a fan of RSGuitarworks' kits because they combine the best in quality for value, with nothing really given up (unless you want everything stainless steel and can pay $200 for 4 pots). RSGW even offers pre-built kits that you can just transplant from the provided templates to your LP, although I am not sure how well they work on foreign made instruments with metric diameters. If yours is afflicted with that, it may just be easier to use normal CTS pots instead. To do an RSGW pre-wired kit, you'd be looking at about $100 + shipping to your residence, but you will notice that your instrument will have more clarity, more definition, and the pickups will not be choked. The stock pots that come in many low and mid-range instruments, and even some high-end USA gibsons, are not designed to get "that sweet Gibson tone", but are to get "bang for the buck". Thin carbon tracks, lots of plastics that fail, etc.
Pics:
http://www.lespaulforum.com/pots/morepots.html <--- vintage centralab vs. cts vs. modern gibson
http://www.lespaulforum.com/pots/potents.html <--- cts vs. modern gibson, with modern gibson's fatigue-based failure.
Back on topic, it depends on the Epiphone you have. If it's a low-end one, it may just be fine to get some standard 500k pots and some basic caps, and for $40 open up the sound. If it's a more robust epiphone (elitist or something), then you may be well-served to get the RSGW kit if it fits. I know that the kits for RSGW fit USA-based guitars, not 100% if they will ultimately fit a foreign-made guitar, however they do everything they claim to on a strat, and one that has a HB and a bumblebee cap. This brings me to my next point. I would also invest in good caps that are made to a high quality, Luxe comes to mind with their bumblebees, and RSGW includes them in one of their kits. I would take a look at them, contact them, and see what they think.
Jason
Addenda: for the RSGW kits, as good as they are, you are going to have to break out the drill to make the holes 3/8" in diameter each.
what makes a pot a pot is the quality of the components. You can have crappy pots with little tiny paths and tin-metal bushings that are available for $1.50, competent CTS pots for $3.99 each that are aluminum with small fingers and a decent track with a 20% tolerance either way, $8 to $12 RSGW / CTS pots that have brass bushings, heavy carbon tracks, and are built like a mix of an old CTS and old centralab, and then there's the $50 / pot alessandro stainless steel monstrosity. As you can see, pots run the gamut in build quality, and that gamut plays a big role in the ability to have nuanced changes, longevity of the potentiometer, and even your tone. A good 500k potentiometer will let a Les Paul get just the right amount of brightness out without getting shrill, will not turn so easily that you can completely throw your tone out, yet isn't so stiff you need a 8" wrench to turn it.
I myself am a fan of RSGuitarworks' kits because they combine the best in quality for value, with nothing really given up (unless you want everything stainless steel and can pay $200 for 4 pots). RSGW even offers pre-built kits that you can just transplant from the provided templates to your LP, although I am not sure how well they work on foreign made instruments with metric diameters. If yours is afflicted with that, it may just be easier to use normal CTS pots instead. To do an RSGW pre-wired kit, you'd be looking at about $100 + shipping to your residence, but you will notice that your instrument will have more clarity, more definition, and the pickups will not be choked. The stock pots that come in many low and mid-range instruments, and even some high-end USA gibsons, are not designed to get "that sweet Gibson tone", but are to get "bang for the buck". Thin carbon tracks, lots of plastics that fail, etc.
Pics:
http://www.lespaulforum.com/pots/morepots.html <--- vintage centralab vs. cts vs. modern gibson
http://www.lespaulforum.com/pots/potents.html <--- cts vs. modern gibson, with modern gibson's fatigue-based failure.
Back on topic, it depends on the Epiphone you have. If it's a low-end one, it may just be fine to get some standard 500k pots and some basic caps, and for $40 open up the sound. If it's a more robust epiphone (elitist or something), then you may be well-served to get the RSGW kit if it fits. I know that the kits for RSGW fit USA-based guitars, not 100% if they will ultimately fit a foreign-made guitar, however they do everything they claim to on a strat, and one that has a HB and a bumblebee cap. This brings me to my next point. I would also invest in good caps that are made to a high quality, Luxe comes to mind with their bumblebees, and RSGW includes them in one of their kits. I would take a look at them, contact them, and see what they think.
Jason
Addenda: for the RSGW kits, as good as they are, you are going to have to break out the drill to make the holes 3/8" in diameter each.
ganzosrevenge
New member
Re: How does a high quality pot affect your tone
yup. And it's not just the value, it's the empirical and structural quality of the pot. It's no good if it's a 500k pot that's built out of the cheapest metals... it's just as bad if it's unobtainium. A balance of quality and value is what does best.
Well-spoken ponch.
yup. And it's not just the value, it's the empirical and structural quality of the pot. It's no good if it's a 500k pot that's built out of the cheapest metals... it's just as bad if it's unobtainium. A balance of quality and value is what does best.
Well-spoken ponch.
John Wymore
New member
Re: How does a high quality pot affect your tone
If you are talking strictly tone (as the post title suggests) and not component quality an electric circuit doesn't really care .... 500K is 500K in electrical terms. What you are buying with more expensive pots is better quality components, tighter tolerances and in the case of RSGW a slightly different taper.
If you are talking strictly tone (as the post title suggests) and not component quality an electric circuit doesn't really care .... 500K is 500K in electrical terms. What you are buying with more expensive pots is better quality components, tighter tolerances and in the case of RSGW a slightly different taper.
Re: How does a high quality pot affect your tone
i changed the pots on my friend's Epi SG 400 to gibson's pot.
with the same pot's value.
the tone is more bright & clear compare to the stocked pots.
of course... u can go wrong with CTS.
just changed it and feel the different.
i changed the pots on my friend's Epi SG 400 to gibson's pot.
with the same pot's value.
the tone is more bright & clear compare to the stocked pots.
of course... u can go wrong with CTS.
just changed it and feel the different.
ganzosrevenge
New member
Re: How does a high quality pot affect your tone
Yup, perfectly spoken. The only thing is with RSGW's different taper, you find that there's a lot more nuance. I myself like tight tolerances, it shows quality comes first, and the only pot I like more is the Alessandros, but those are $50 / each, and unless you have something like a PRS private stock, or a custom LP, it's just not worth it IMHO. (Alessandro tolerances are +/- 1%, RSGW is +/- 2% on the superpots, and +/- 10% on normal pots. Normal CTS is +/- 20%.)
Yup, perfectly spoken. The only thing is with RSGW's different taper, you find that there's a lot more nuance. I myself like tight tolerances, it shows quality comes first, and the only pot I like more is the Alessandros, but those are $50 / each, and unless you have something like a PRS private stock, or a custom LP, it's just not worth it IMHO. (Alessandro tolerances are +/- 1%, RSGW is +/- 2% on the superpots, and +/- 10% on normal pots. Normal CTS is +/- 20%.)
super rad stuff
Skaforlifeologist
Re: How does a high quality pot affect your tone
standard CTS(US diameter) and alpha(US and metric diameters) are what i'd say are the standard for upgrading your pots. orange drop caps are pretty standard too, and way affordable. all my guitars are wired up with those components except for my bass, which has a ceramic cap since i don't have a high enough value orange drop for it:dunno:
standard CTS(US diameter) and alpha(US and metric diameters) are what i'd say are the standard for upgrading your pots. orange drop caps are pretty standard too, and way affordable. all my guitars are wired up with those components except for my bass, which has a ceramic cap since i don't have a high enough value orange drop for it:dunno:
J
Jay 77
Guest
Re: How does a high quality pot affect your tone
I'm with you on CTS and Orange Drop (love 'em), but those Alpha pots are horrendous. Low, low quality even when compared to CTS.
I'm with you on CTS and Orange Drop (love 'em), but those Alpha pots are horrendous. Low, low quality even when compared to CTS.
super rad stuff
Skaforlifeologist
Re: How does a high quality pot affect your tone
well ya gotta stick something into your import guitars when you don't have a 3/8" drill bit laying around
also CTS doesn't make regular push-pull pots whereas alpha does. and i can't afford the bournes push pulls
well ya gotta stick something into your import guitars when you don't have a 3/8" drill bit laying around
also CTS doesn't make regular push-pull pots whereas alpha does. and i can't afford the bournes push pulls
ganzosrevenge
New member
Re: How does a high quality pot affect your tone
Bourns push-pulls are pricey, but outside of the custom pot guys, they are the best in the business for mass-produced, non-custom pots. The only problem I have with bourns is the 95 pot is a little difficult to wire up, their normal "CTS-look" pots are amazing. I can't find though where it says the shaft diameter is 6mm, thus making them import friendly. Alphas, at least on the mexican guitars I've seen / worked with, have been hit-or-miss... show me where you found 6mm shaft bourns pots though.
well ya gotta stick something into your import guitars when you don't have a 3/8" drill bit laying around
Bourns push-pulls are pricey, but outside of the custom pot guys, they are the best in the business for mass-produced, non-custom pots. The only problem I have with bourns is the 95 pot is a little difficult to wire up, their normal "CTS-look" pots are amazing. I can't find though where it says the shaft diameter is 6mm, thus making them import friendly. Alphas, at least on the mexican guitars I've seen / worked with, have been hit-or-miss... show me where you found 6mm shaft bourns pots though.
J
Jay 77
Guest
Re: How does a high quality pot affect your tone
Who needs a drill bit? A small, fine round file has been doing the trick for me.
well ya gotta stick something into your import guitars when you don't have a 3/8" drill bit laying around
Who needs a drill bit? A small, fine round file has been doing the trick for me.
super rad stuff
Skaforlifeologist
Re: How does a high quality pot affect your tone
i haven't found 6mm bourns pots, i just use alpha pots for that. whenever i wire up a 6mm guitar it's with alphas, and 3/8" it's usually a mix of cts and alpha so i can have some push pulls. currently though i've got some crazy wiring going on in my guitars so i'm actually not using any CTS pots right now.
i haven't found 6mm bourns pots, i just use alpha pots for that. whenever i wire up a 6mm guitar it's with alphas, and 3/8" it's usually a mix of cts and alpha so i can have some push pulls. currently though i've got some crazy wiring going on in my guitars so i'm actually not using any CTS pots right now.
ganzosrevenge
New member
Re: How does a high quality pot affect your tone
what's the wiring, and I thought CTS makes push-pull pots. I may well be wrong and they stopped making, if so. Who makes the pots that are found in the jimmy page signatures by gibson. (not the black beauty, the other CA from 2005 or 2006, which IIRC should have had push pull, but I don't think did)
Jason
what's the wiring, and I thought CTS makes push-pull pots. I may well be wrong and they stopped making, if so. Who makes the pots that are found in the jimmy page signatures by gibson. (not the black beauty, the other CA from 2005 or 2006, which IIRC should have had push pull, but I don't think did)
Jason
uOpt
Something Cool
Re: How does a high quality pot affect your tone
At the same position (reading the same Ohms) different pots generally don't sound different. A potentiometer is pretty good at only having resistance and few other electrical properties.
The situation is different for example for capacitors. The large-format old-style capacitors have a whole range of properties at different A/C frequencies that do change the sound even when they read the same capacitance. But for pots, no, in general they are just resistors and a cheap pot sounds the same as an expensive one at the same readings. Of course the cheap one might be broken, crackle or do whatever.
The mess begins when you actually use the pot. Some guitarists are very sensitive to the curve when turning down guitar posts (although technically it wouldn't matter since you'll be able to find the same resistance on the other pot at a different position).
At the same position (reading the same Ohms) different pots generally don't sound different. A potentiometer is pretty good at only having resistance and few other electrical properties.
The situation is different for example for capacitors. The large-format old-style capacitors have a whole range of properties at different A/C frequencies that do change the sound even when they read the same capacitance. But for pots, no, in general they are just resistors and a cheap pot sounds the same as an expensive one at the same readings. Of course the cheap one might be broken, crackle or do whatever.
The mess begins when you actually use the pot. Some guitarists are very sensitive to the curve when turning down guitar posts (although technically it wouldn't matter since you'll be able to find the same resistance on the other pot at a different position).
John Wymore
New member
Re: How does a high quality pot affect your tone
This is why I measure every pot I get in and adjust to a specific resistance range. Despite being made with decent materials the CTS pots are all over the place resistance wise. I regularly see a range of 410K to 560K. I try to get everything I sell between 495K and 530K.
This is why I measure every pot I get in and adjust to a specific resistance range. Despite being made with decent materials the CTS pots are all over the place resistance wise. I regularly see a range of 410K to 560K. I try to get everything I sell between 495K and 530K.
ganzosrevenge
New member
Re: How does a high quality pot affect your tone
Right. Pots, from a numbers value ar more or less consistent, it comes down to a user's subjective preference, and the overall quality of the parts used to make the pot. You could have a perfectly 500k pot, but because it's built cheaply, it scratches to no end, or a 520k pot that has top-quality parts everywhere, and no scratching at all, and most people will pick the "slightly off" pot because it has a better overal feel. Although that too is subjective. Caps, on the other hand are different because of their electrical tendencies, and also because of what they're made of. A ceramic strat cap is going to behave much differently than a sprague bumblebee because of the inherent properties and how it works with the pot's taper to filter out high end.
You're a good man. Even though Fender's tolerance is +/- 20%, the american special mahogany HSS I own had a 250k pot at 185k, and one at 332k, before I proceeded to customize it. That's closer to a 30% tolerance level, which IMHO is disgusting for what is marketed as a high-end production instrument. What makes it worse is that it's not a no-name company that's doing this, but the same CTS we idolize. Apparently, what I found is that RSGW specifies everything to CTS, from the bushings to the carbon track, to the shaft, to the pot's structure itself, and you get a mix of an old centralab and a CTS from CTS's glory days. It's a shame how everything is built for "value!" as opposed to quality these days, and if you want that quality you have to pay 5x as much.
Jason
Right. Pots, from a numbers value ar more or less consistent, it comes down to a user's subjective preference, and the overall quality of the parts used to make the pot. You could have a perfectly 500k pot, but because it's built cheaply, it scratches to no end, or a 520k pot that has top-quality parts everywhere, and no scratching at all, and most people will pick the "slightly off" pot because it has a better overal feel. Although that too is subjective. Caps, on the other hand are different because of their electrical tendencies, and also because of what they're made of. A ceramic strat cap is going to behave much differently than a sprague bumblebee because of the inherent properties and how it works with the pot's taper to filter out high end.
You're a good man. Even though Fender's tolerance is +/- 20%, the american special mahogany HSS I own had a 250k pot at 185k, and one at 332k, before I proceeded to customize it. That's closer to a 30% tolerance level, which IMHO is disgusting for what is marketed as a high-end production instrument. What makes it worse is that it's not a no-name company that's doing this, but the same CTS we idolize. Apparently, what I found is that RSGW specifies everything to CTS, from the bushings to the carbon track, to the shaft, to the pot's structure itself, and you get a mix of an old centralab and a CTS from CTS's glory days. It's a shame how everything is built for "value!" as opposed to quality these days, and if you want that quality you have to pay 5x as much.
Jason
super rad stuff
Skaforlifeologist
Re: How does a high quality pot affect your tone
i've got artie/page wiring in both my SG faded and dot studio. i've got it setup with 500k pots all around. the pots are:
neck volume-series
neck tone-coil swap
bridge volume-coil cut
bridge tone-phase
i've got artie/page wiring in both my SG faded and dot studio. i've got it setup with 500k pots all around. the pots are:
neck volume-series
neck tone-coil swap
bridge volume-coil cut
bridge tone-phase
