How many position possibilties?

[Will S-T]

There may even be a prize in this:friday:

The project is an Electa 335 copy with P-rails neck and bridge.
A very nice platform for these pickups and should prove versatile.

OK, here's the deal, with the the following control layout, how many
positions / sounds are possible??
I know alot will be virtually useless, nonetheless, the aim is to achieve
the greatest number of sounds.

Here we go!

Triple shots for both pickups,
2 x mini toggles = phase for each pickup,
Neck volume = Series/Parallel pickups
Bridge volume = phase pipickups
Varitone = 6 way master
Master tone = Varitone controller

Have fun and lets just say, the number of positions is quite a bit more than
you probably would have imagined.

Cheers, Will

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: How many position possibilties?

First of all, I don't understand two of your descriptions:

1. Bridge volume = phase pickups. What does that do? You already have a phase switch for each pickup.

2. Master tone = Varitone controller. Does that mean it is a push pull that selects whether or not the Varitone has any effect? Or does it just mean that it is a tone knob that is always using one of the caps offered by the Varitone?

So, I will start counting assuming that the "phase pickups" thing has no effect, and that the Varitone is always being used.

Additionally, I am assuming that by phase switches you mean polarity switches.

OK, here goes.

For a single pickup, you have:

1. Rail only
2. P90 only
3. Both in series
4. Both in parallel

That is 4 for each pickup.

Looking at the polarity switches, the number stays at 4, as the switch does not make a difference in tone if you are using only one pickup.

Multiply by the six settings on the Vari-Tone to get 24 for each pickup when used by itself.

Now let's go to the middle position on the pickup selector switch. Here is where it gets hard for me to figure out.

Seems that for each setting on one pickup, you have as many combos as there are settings for the other pickup. However, the Varitone should not be counted here, as it affects both pickups together. And we also need to include the flipped polarity possibilities when considering the middle position.

So, I'd say 4x4 = 16 possibilities on the middle position, Varitone not considered.

Then we look at the polarity switches. I can think of three tones that you will be able to get out of using them: 1) neck normal, bridge reversed. 2) neck reversed, bridge normal. 3) both normal or both reversed. They should sound the same.

So multiply 16x3. 48.

Consider the Varitone. 48x6 = 288

Add in the number of sounds you can get from each pickup by itself (24 each pickup).

288+24+24 = 336. I think that's it. Sounds crazy, but it is only because of the Varitone. Without that Varitone, it would be 56: 48 in the middle, and 4 for each pickup alone.

Of course, those two assumptions I made at the beginning could be wrong. If the master tone control's hidden switch really is an on/off for the Varitone, and it has it's own unique cap value that it uses when you shut the Varitone off (i.e. a cap value not found on the Varitone), you'd have 4 additional options for each pickup alone, and you'd have 48 additional options in the middle position. So add 56 to 336 to get 392.

Sounds like it would probably be one of the least user friendly guitars one could design.

 

[Zhaggy]

Re: How many position possibilties?

First of all you'll only need ONE phase switch as it doesn't matter which pick is reversed, so neck-normal-bridge-reversed is the same thing as neck-reversed-bridge-normal, there is no difference there. Also both-normal and both-reversed is the same thing.

And it actually is phase switch NOT a polarity switch as you're not touching the magnet but the direction of the current, i.e. Phase.

 

[ImmortalSix]

Re: How many position possibilties?

#167 sounds good, but it lacks the "bounce" of #294

 

[Zhaggy]

Re: How many position possibilties?

And you could also clarify what the varitone=6way-master and tone=varitone-controller means.

Btw I have 3 hum, 3 triple shot, 4 push/pull Les Paul with which I can get 190 "different" combos.

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: How many position possibilties?

Dang!!! What a disappointment.

With a title like that, I was expecting something more useful/juicy. (At my age I can use all the help I can get with positions).

 

[crusty philtrum]

Re: How many position possibilties?

" then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, ...."

 

[GoldenVulture]

Re: How many position possibilties?

" then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, ...."

And it shalll be called " the Holy trinity of Tone "

And to he that hath an ear and hears the tone, may he praise the gods of tone.

 

[Will S-T]

Re: How many position possibilties?

Just to clarify a few things.

1, Bridge Volume switch puts the bridge pickup out of phase with the neck
2, Master Tone controls the six Varitone caps and switches to bypass, ie full output
3, Phase switches for each pickup add series OOP and parallel OOP for each pickup
This gives a total of 6 possibilities for each pickup

And for the record, the guitar can be played just like any conventional 2 humbucker guitar
with 3 way toggle, two volume and and just a master tone, set the cap and forget.

Get your calculators out!!

 

[Hellion]

Re: How many position possibilties?

This post isn't what I thought it'd be about... Kinda like reading "Cosmopolitan" for the "kinkiest thing you'll ever try in bed", only to find out that it's something you quit doing years before, because it'd gotten old...

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: How many position possibilties?

youll get even more if you use one of these instead of a varitone will! its got 16 tones in it!
http://www.stellartone.com/Page.asp?NavID=50

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: How many position possibilties?

Thanks for the clarification.

OK, here goes again.

For a single pickup, you have:

1. Rail only
2. P90 only
3. Both coils in series in phase
4. Both coils in parallel in phase
5. Both coils in series out of phase
6. Both coils in parallel out of phase

That is 6 for each pickup.

For each of those setups, you have the six settings on the Vari-Tone, and the one bypass setting. So multiply by seven. 42 possibilities for each pickup by itself. That means 84 possibilities without using the middle pickup selector position.

Now let's go to the middle position on the pickup selector switch.

For each setting on one pickup, you have as many combos as there are settings for the other pickup. However, the Varitone should not be counted here, as it affects both pickups together. And we also need to include the flipped polarity possibilities when considering the middle position.

So, I'd say 6x6 = 36 possibilities on the middle position, Varitone not considered.

Then we look at the master in phase/out of phase switch. That makes it so you can have each of those 36 positions two different ways. Therefore 72 possibilities in the middle without considering the Varitone/bypass.

Consider the Varitone and the Varitone bypass options. 72x7 = 504.

Add in the number of sounds you can get from each pickup by itself (42 each pickup).

504+42+42 = 588. I think that's it. Sounds crazy, but that is mainly because of the Varitone.

Sounds like it would probably be one of the least user friendly guitars one could design.

 

[Will S-T]

Re: How many position possibilties?

Thanks for the clarification.

OK, here goes again.

For a single pickup, you have:

1. Rail only
2. P90 only
3. Both coils in series in phase
4. Both coils in parallel in phase
5. Both coils in series out of phase
6. Both coils in parallel out of phase

That is 6 for each pickup.

For each of those setups, you have the six settings on the Vari-Tone, and the one bypass setting. So multiply by seven. 42 possibilities for each pickup by itself. That means 84 possibilities without using the middle pickup selector position.

Now let's go to the middle position on the pickup selector switch.

For each setting on one pickup, you have as many combos as there are settings for the other pickup. However, the Varitone should not be counted here, as it affects both pickups together. And we also need to include the flipped polarity possibilities when considering the middle position.

So, I'd say 6x6 = 36 possibilities on the middle position, Varitone not considered.

Then we look at the master in phase/out of phase switch. That makes it so you can have each of those 36 positions two different ways. Therefore 72 possibilities in the middle without considering the Varitone/bypass.

Consider the Varitone and the Varitone bypass options. 72x7 = 504.

Add in the number of sounds you can get from each pickup by itself (42 each pickup).

504+42+42 = 588. I think that's it. Sounds crazy, but that is mainly because of the Varitone.

Sounds like it would probably be one of the least user friendly guitars one could design.

You're getting there mate:friday:

Lets count it this way and we'll leave the Varitone till the end.

Yes, there are 6 positions for each pickup = 12 single pickup
And yes again there are 36 possibilities in the middle position.
However, we now introduce the series/parallel and phase switch into the equation.

We now have both pickups:

Series in phase
Series out of phase
Parallel in phase and
Parallel out of phase

This gives us 4 x 36 = 144
plus the 12 singles = 156 Total pickup possibilities

Now add 6 for the Varitone plus 1 for the bypass = 7

The grand total is 156 x 7 = 1092 possibilities

But do remember, by NOT using any of the extra switches,
the guitar will play as normal.

Cheers:friday:

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: How many position possibilties?

Completely forgot the master series/parallel switch! D'oh! Otherwise, woulda had it!

42 options for each pickup alone.

36 in the middle.
Plus another 36 for the master in/out phase switch.
Each of those 72 can be done with the pickups in series or in parallel. 144.
x7 for the Varitone and bypass = 1,008.
+ 84 for the individual options - 1,092.

 

[Zhaggy]

Re: How many position possibilties?

Wow 1092 is pretty impressive. I don't want to be a killjoy here but there ARE few ( and only a few) positions that are the same.

If I understood correctly the pickup phase switches switch the phase of one coil in the humbuckers. So if you select those coils and put both OOP it's the same as both in-phase and or it doesn't matter which coil is reversed phase as long as they are different phase so that take 2 out and that times 4 (series/parallel-IP/OOP) and times 7 (varitone) se there are actually 2x4x7=56 position that are the same so it'll be 1036 positions total which is still over 1000.

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: How many position possibilties?

But will it wash my dishes and do the laundry?

 

[Will S-T]

Re: How many position possibilties?

But will it wash my dishes and do the laundry?

Position #752:friday:

 

[crusty philtrum]

Re: How many position possibilties?

I see what you're saying here ... two humbuckers isn't going to give you enough tone options.

So yes, obviously you're going to need the 3rd P-Rails as a middle pickup, and the associated switching to get a useful number of variations.

I'm also assuming you want to know where to get a suitable rotary switch with at least 1,000 positions ?