Hows does your brain work

[Phantasmagoria]

Re: Hows does your brain work

Dude....I had no idea you were a Fokin guy!
I have those pickups in 4 guitars....he makes AMAZING pickups.

Damn right I Fokin am!

I did post a thread about them in the pickup lounge a few years ago..very awesome p'up's indeed!

I have them in two guitars .I'd get more if I had more guitars to put them in :lmao:

 

[Mincer]

Re: Hows does your brain work

Links?

The link is in my first sentence. If it doesn't work, it is https://www.seymourduncan.com/?s=modes&post_type=

 

[Gransen]

Re: Hows does your brain work

I just purchased a course from Alex Skolnick. Same thing he said, learn licks.

I might have just found Ionian mode A DIFFERENT WAY...!!! Back to basics once again, "Find the right chord progression, and THEN use the right licks!"

In trying to solve that B-D-A-E chord prog that you and I were talking about (which is an abomination to music theory...that sounds AWESOME!), I bumped into I-iii-V-vi in Ionian mode (G-Bm-D-Em). It's a "moody major chord prog," like a minor, but it has intervals that allow for different sounding fills on lead, as well as transitional notes on rhythm.

So, step one, stay in my "moody wheelhouse" with the right chord prog, THEN install the right licks on lead! THEN start looking for those uplifting progs / licks once I'm comfortable with that mode.

Step two (untested by me as of yet), use these new licks (and alterations thereof) to come up with the right chord progs. That's backwards thinking for this "rhythm first" cowboy...

 

[Gransen]

Re: Hows does your brain work

I feel like I am just confusing you. 1st things 1st, learn the major scale. Learn how its formed, the intervals and such. Dont worry about modes, your making way too much of it. It's not so complicated. Step back and learn the major scale diatonic, 7 notes

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Learn the major scale...??? Dude, where did THAT come from...!?!

Pick up a guitar. Now, I want you to play the following chords: B-D-A-E...all major open/barre chords. Then tell me if that sounds like it's a good chord progression for a song.

Okay, what MODE is that chord prog from...??? It's absolutely NONE of the major modes in the natural scale. LOOK AT IT!!! Furthermore, it's not "borrowing thirds from a parallel key," nor is it "the dominate of the dominate" that allows for this borrowing!

Notice how I call it "the MODES of the Natural Scale," and not the incorrect "Ionian scale, Aeolian scale, etc." I know the entire natural scale and it's modes, and I can teach it...

https://forum.seymourduncan.com/showthread.php?333421-Shred-Scale

Seriously, it feels like I'm the one who's confusing YOU!

 

[Jacew]

Re: Hows does your brain work

Not sure understand what your saying. Can you give an example of what you might do if say, you want to take the major scale you know and play something in Dorian?

Major scale I know? Independent of the key major scale is always practically the same. Isn't it just a matter of playing the same thing in different place on the fretboard?

So since Dorian scale shares same notes as Ionian scale of one whole step down of the major scale, I just play notes from that major scale anchored from the key I want to play.

eg: in C major scale, second degree is D. So if I want to play D dorian, I play C major scale keeping the root in D.

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: Hows does your brain work

Major scale I know? Independent of the key major scale is always practically the same. Isn't it just a matter of playing the same thing in different place on the fretboard?

So since Dorian scale shares same notes as Ionian scale of one whole step down of the major scale, I just play notes from that major scale anchored from the key I want to play.

eg: in C major scale, second degree is D. So if I want to play D dorian, I play C major scale keeping the root in D.

While your definition is technically correct it’s a bit of an oversimplification.
What would you do if I asked you to play D Dorian but you HAD to play in 12th position?
You wouldn’t be able to use the same scale shape anymore...what’s your solution?

 

[Gransen]

Re: Hows does your brain work

Go to the 3rd mode at E. Thats phyrgian, same notes as C major, D Dorian, this time starting from the 3rd note, E. Then a Half step up is Lydian, F Lydian to be exact again, same notes. You may know this, please dont get insulted if you do. 1, 4, 5 are major triads, 2,3,6 are minor. 7 sucks, we dont use it. I just tried to help, and I get insulted, not by you, but mr dont know jack ship

Please avoid passive / aggressive insults in public.

And I figured out which mode that the B-D-A-E chord prog comes from, and it's a little known rule regarding that mode that I read about a long time ago: Locrian Mode.

The rule is that you can borrow the major/minor properties of the degree in which the interval falls into, and also use Locrian as either a major or minor.

"B" is the tonic of Locrian mode, so the only notes in the key of Bdim are B-C-D-E-F-G-A...no sharps or flats. So, we've got Bdim, and we can play that as a major, because we can. THAT'S THE RULE. Then we have a minor interval, then another minor, then a major. So, now all that we have to do is borrow the major 3rd for those two minors, and now we're playing music.

This is not an argument, and I don't see it as such. This is me simply stating that I found a chord prog that I couldn't figure out the scale to (HOW DO I PLAY LEAD OVER THAT...!?!), and then spent too long not looking at the diminished mode, then had my "ah-HA!!!" moment, and remembered something that I read years and years ago about another "chord borrowing" technique.

That's the crux of my problem with that chord progression, how can a person play lead if they don't know the mode...??? This progression SOUNDS GOOD! But, how can I actually use it if I don't know the other intervals...!?! So, how does one find the other missing intervals...??? Now it's time to figure out the mode and/or scale that's being used (is it from an oddball jazz scale...???) so that a person can play their lead licks along with a rhythm guitar; potentially playing on a loop pedal, thus only requiring one guitar player to play both lead AND rhythm.

And the rule that I learned regarding the diminished scale is that YOU CAN TURN THE ROOT OF THE DIMINISHED SCALE INTO EITHER A MAJOR OR A MINOR! Then you can borrow properties of the degree that the other intervals fall into, and turn the whole thing into something else that's virtually undefinable. And, of course, when playing lead, the player needs to follow the diminished pattern while ignoring the "borrowed" aspects of the chords being played.

And THAT'S why B-D-A-E works as a chord prog. And THAT'S why it was important for me to figure out which mode I'm in, or if I'm using an entirely different scale altogether (like the Hirajoshi scale, or the harmonic minor beebop scale...???).

Next trick: That's a very lively chord progression, and a very moody tone/semitone pattern to follow on lead. One thought...HARMONIZE THE LEAD USING A DIFFERENT MODE!!!

And yeah, I like doing that. That's a trick that I use and abuse, probably more than I abuse inverted power chords...

 

[Gtrjunior]

Hows does your brain work

Go to the 3rd mode at E. Thats phyrgian, same notes as C major, D Dorian, this time starting from the 3rd note, E. Then a Half step up is Lydian, F Lydian to be exact again, same notes. You may know this, please dont get insulted if you do. 1, 4, 5 are major triads, 2,3,6 are minor. 7 sucks, we dont use it. I just tried to help, and I get insulted, not by you, but mr dont know jack ship

So, you’re thinking of this a little askew. I completely understand what you mean when you say “go to the 12th fret and play Phrygian.” But you’re confusing the Phrygian “shape” with the mode. You’re still playing in D Dorian, not E Phrygian.
It all hinges on what the rhythm is playing.
Modes tend to follow “typical” chord progressions.
For Ex..
Lydian typically has a M1-M2 movement. Amaj to Bmaj.
Mixo typically has a M1- Mdom7 Amaj to GDom 7

Dorian is 1m7 to IV(Dom7)
Dm7-Gdom7.
If you’re playing over this progression using D Dorian and move up to the 12th fret and use the scale shape you are calling Phrygian....it is still Dorian and not Phrygian.
Make sense?

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: Hows does your brain work

Exactly how I see it, the chords determine the mode. Back to that 1,4, 5 thing. Sometimes I like doing 1 chord vamps the other way though. Say its in Aminor?
Play the A dorian, Phyg or Aeolian over the same chord. I think its easier to hear the flavor of the mode that way. You said 12 fret, so those notes would be Phygian if an E minor was playing, right? Long as you resolve to a strong chord tone, same notes. I just bought a book on caged, and I been working hard on my triads too. Its a lot to learn, but I am trying hours everyday

I think you get it.
Try this....use your looper pedal to record some basic power chord chugging. E lower chord changing to F power chord chugging. Then play that 12th position E Phrygian....now you’ll hear the Phrygian sound. That exotic kind of Arabian sound.
Play your D Dorian shape over it too...see how it still sounds Phrygian and exotic? Pretty cool.

Now record a Dm7 to Gdom7 change....go back and forth between those same 2 scales....notice how it now has the Dorian, smooth minor Santana sound....?
It’s all about the chords. [emoji846]

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: Hows does your brain work

I do get it, now making it happen in real time is another thing. I find it actually fairly simple, as far as the theory goes. Thanks for the progressions, I am not quite ready to write, maybe in a year or two. The other thing I want to see is adding the extensions that bring out each modes flavor. Another one I learned, when you see two major chords a half step apart, its harmonic minor there

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It’s 2 major chords a whole step apart for Lydian.

But a half step apart isn’t harmonic minor though. You would need a minor1 chord for H-minor. So the harmonic minor scale is a natural minor scale with a raised 7th (major 7 in a minor scale).

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: Hows does your brain work

A harmonic minor for example. That means the G now is Gsharp? That Gsharp is the 3rd of E major, right? So in Ahm., you now have an E major and F major half step apart. Starting from E, it's the phyrgian dominant, right? E major to F major, half step. That's harmonic minor

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You’re back to thinking of the modes incorrectly.....you would be playing E Phrygian Dom not AHminor...
In order to play in Ahm you need the Am to be the tonic of your progression. Once you make the E the tonic you’re not centered around the Am anymore. Yes, you’re pulling your idea from the Hminor series but you’re no longer creating that sound anymore with the new chords.

 

[Gtrjunior]

Re: Hows does your brain work

The questions you’re asking are DEEP. And tbh, I’m very much a student of the modes at this point. I have a decent knowledge base but still...I’m absolutely in learning mode.
I’ve got a ton more work to do with the modes of the
major scale never mind the advanced stuff.
This stuff gets heavy fast.

 

[Gransen]

Re: Hows does your brain work

Hows this for passive aggressive WRONG WRONG WRONG LOCRIAN??Just Stop, you have no idea of what you are talking about dude. That progression is in B Mixolydian. Its harmonized major scale is E, B is the 5 chord of E. I am going to block you, hire a fkn teacher dude. I went out of my way to help you and you give me a hard time?

There are a BUNCH of ways to borrow chords in music.

Harmonized fifth, huh. Welp, there's a rule that I'm not familiar with. And you FINALLY actually gave me an answer that isn't as convoluted as the crap that I came up with looking for that needle in the haystack. Look at you, NOW YOU'RE A TEACHER...!!! You weren't TEACHING me before this post. I asked you (via responding to a PM that YOU initiated) if you knew what was up with that chord progression, and you told me to stick with Ionian mode, learn the natural scale, and that if I don't know 1, 4, 5, then I don't know music.

I know that I've read somewhere that you can find a "rule" that allows you to turn pretty much ANY interval into a major or minor. "If it sounds musical, then there's probably a rule that allows you to do it, so just go ahead and don't worry about whatever, and have fun playing music." Problem: WHAT MODE AM I IN...!?!

That's all that I asked. I wanted to know what mode I was in, because I like that progression, and it didn't make sense. Why did I want to know which mode I was in...??? So that I can play lead over that progression. Simple question. You had the answer. You knew how to answer that question, and you decided not to.

And now you're mad at me. And I learned something from you about music. And I'm not mad. I like learning new stuff! I don't care WHO teaches me something new, if it's pertinent, then I get to keep it and call it "OURS."

Don't be mad. Your anger will serve you no purpose in life.

 

[Gransen]

Re: Hows does your brain work

Question: "What rule in music allows you to play a power chord at the interval represented by the 7th degree of the natural scale...???"

Example: If you're in Ionian mode and playing power chords, and you go a half step down from the root, and you don't flat the fifth, why aren't you wrong...??? Now move to Dorian mode. Why aren't you wrong for failing to flat the fifth three semitone down from the root in THIS mode. Now, explain the rule for each and every mode of the natural scale that allows you to play regular power chords at that interval.

THAT'S the type of logic that I followed when I came up with "Locian mode." Mild frustration and what appeared to be an epiphany is what led me to my thinking...B is the tonic, and that allows me to deal with those sharps/flats that were getting in the way! Then it's that rule that allows people to play power chords at that interval when they're not supposed to be playing chords at that interval without flatting the 5th...!!!

Still not embarrassed by my logic, and still not mad. No reason to be mad.

But yeah, that's a good question isn't it...!?! Why can we play power chords at that interval...???

 

[Mincer]

Re: Hows does your brain work

Calm down, everyone. We are only trying to help.

This isn't the way I practice or think about modes at all. If I want to practice E Phrygian, I set up an E root (bass line) playing 16ths. I then play an F & G triads over that. It is easy to hear E Phrygian over F/E and G/E chords.

 

[Gransen]

Re: Hows does your brain work

Calm down, everyone. We are only trying to help.

This isn't the way I practice or think about modes at all. If I want to practice E Phrygian, I set up an E root (bass line) playing 16ths. I then play an F & G triads over that. It is easy to hear E Phrygian over F/E and G/E chords.

My problem was that I'm in that "creative mood" where I like to noodle around and find stuff that works. I was playing a B barre chord to work on my fretting/transitions while watching TV, and suddenly that chord sounded like the diddy from a car commercial in the early 90's...!!! So, I hacked out what the other chords where, and I was like, "Man, I liked that back then, and I still like it now...!!!"

Next thing I know, I'm trying to figure out the scale, because I can't take the next step without knowing that!

Not my style when noodling. I seriously try to avoid sounding like someone else...pretty much at all times. (Start here, then it moves to this interval, then over here...and that puts me in one of these 2 or 3 modes. Now where...??? I map it out as I go, or else figure it out when I come to a stopping point. THEN the fun begins...!!!)

 

[dpaterson]

Re: Hows does your brain work

Bloody hell. And you dudes took the pi*s with me on my Vivian thread for dragging sh*t out ad nauseam??? LOL!!! Keep going. You've only got another four or five pages or so to go!!! LOL!!!

Oh well. Carry on. Still monitoring the thread daily but not getting caught up in all of this (which is out of character for me let's face it!!! LOL!!!) (not to mention that it's way out of my depth and way above my pay grade). But in the time it's taken you lot to analyse and argue: I've put together something that I think sounds really nice and this in spite of not knowing sh*t about all of this stuff!!! Now it's not finished and I will not upload until it's tight as hell. But let's if I can finish before you get to fourteen pages!!! LOL!!!

 

[Gransen]

Re: Hows does your brain work

But in the time it's taken you lot to analyse and argue: I've put together something that I think sounds really nice and this in spite of not knowing sh*t about all of this stuff!!! Now it's not finished and I will not upload until it's tight as hell. But let's if I can finish before you get to fourteen pages!!! LOL!!!

Dude, you'll have that thing done before I finish one that's ALREADY done! Because no it's not...no it's not.

 

[Gransen]

Re: Hows does your brain work

The OP said a few pages back...

One question I've asked more than once but never received an answer to is what do the Professionals do they're "not in the mood" to actually perform???

Last night I was listening to a song that someone recorded and posted on this forum, and it was catchy enough for me that my brain just started humming the vocal part. It happens. There was at least one major twist in the lead guitar that threw me on vocals, but it was a quick recovery and continue to march.

BUT...like always when I do this, something about the lead guitar just kept on getting in the way of my vocals, and I couldn't find a recovery. In this case, it was the beat of the lead at that lick...it was just stepping all over my vocals. If we're in the recording studio, and he didn't make a change LONG before we got there, then I've got an emotional burden that I've got to deal with when singing HIS song.

If he makes me change my vocals on one of MY songs, and the band is like, "Just change it, Gransen," then I'm now not happy going on tour because I'm in charge of jack squat. Now I feel like I'm THEIR tool, because the lead guitar player is a bigger a-hole, so the band just sides with him all the time, and now I don't even have creative control over MY song!!! Diplomacy is over, and I'm screwed.

These are the types of reasons why bands like S.O.A.D. decide to go on hiatus. FRICTION. Bring that friction to the stage with you, and then you've got an emotional burden. Now, relate THAT issue to professionals "not in the mood" to actually perform.

My "layman's" advice (bearing in mind that I'm a hack who noodles at home) is to actually pay attention to those warning signs AS THE BAND IS FORMING!!! Is the lead vocalist really super great, but his attitude sux, but he's really super great, so we have to keep him...??? Go to a karaoke bar and find the replacement! Is it the lead guitarist...??? They grow on trees. I PERSONALLY BELIEVE THAT THIS IS THE CORRECT WAY TO THINK WHEN FORMING A BAND.

Anyone can be replaced! An-eeeee-1. And if it doesn't happen on day one, then it's likely to happen eventually.

The moral of the story: "Don't set yourself up for failure when setting up your band." I'm pretty sure that the pros would agree, and many have learned this lesson the hard way.

 

[Jacew]

Re: Hows does your brain work

While your definition is technically correct it’s a bit of an oversimplification.
What would you do if I asked you to play D Dorian but you HAD to play in 12th position?
You wouldn’t be able to use the same scale shape anymore...what’s your solution?

I don't go by the shapes. I've learned major scale thorough the fretboard. I can play it from any position, though getting it always right is still work in progress.