HSH dummy middle pickup?

H

hwiho2002

New member
I have a strat with an HSH setup, and the 5 way is wired so that I get the middle single coil in parallel, humcancelling with a split humbucker in positions 2 and 4. I was wondering if I were to turn the middle pickup in to a dummy coil by removing its polepieces would I essentially be getting only the split humbuckers in positions 2 and 4, but remain humcancelling?

I ask because I seem to prefer just the split humbucker without the middle singlecoil in parallel, but I can't stand the hum.
 
Re: HSH dummy middle pickup?

removing the pole pieces may break the coil of the pup. what kind of pup is it?
 
Re: HSH dummy middle pickup?

Removing the magnet worked for a dummy coil I installed on a Strat. I put mine under the pickguard, but it had little affect on tone, big effect on buzz.
 
Re: HSH dummy middle pickup?

right. depending on the pup this could work fine. but if you break the coil then it wont cancel hum. if the single has plastic bobbins then you should be good to go. if its old style with flatwork and the wire wrapped right on the magnets, gotta be much more careful
 
Re: HSH dummy middle pickup?

its a dimarzio fs1 which is the old flatstyle, but if the whole dummy coil thing could work I'll probably end up buying a dimarzio sds1 which has adjustable polepieces and remove the poles.

So does the dummy coil really have minimal effect on tone? Why don't more guys like Fender implement this?
 
Re: HSH dummy middle pickup?

hwiho2002 said:
So does the dummy coil really have minimal effect on tone? Why don't more guys like Fender implement this?
Click to expand...

... because the effect on tone is rarely "minimal".

A pickup used as a dummy coil rises the inductance and flattens the resonant peak, hence a duller/darker sound. And it slightly diminishes the output level as well as the dynamics...

More: ANY noise cancelling coil has an effect on tone. The least "invasive" would be a "Ilitch" air coil... But typically, it doesn't cancel ALL the noise and is pretty "directional" (some positions of the guitar relatively to the noise source being physically noisier than others).


FWIW, this answer comes from someone (me) who has two guitars with (switchable) "dummy" pickups and several other ones with various noise cancellers - old or "advanced" stacks, single coil sized "rails" pickups and Ilitch air coils.

If ever you want to build an Ilitch air coil, look there: https://sites.google.com/site/stringsandfrets/Home/noise-reduction-for-sc-pickups

And if you want a "dummy" mid pickup, just find a cheap Strat PU with some ceramic magnet(s) glued below: these one are wound on plastic bobbins and its easy to pull off their metal poles once the mag ripped off - and if they made mediocre pickups, they give pretty good noise cancelling dummies.

Last but not least: I've a few paliative schematics in my bag of tricks if ever a dummy coil added to an existing pickup gives a too dull sound. PM me about that if needed.

Good luck in your experiments. :-)
 
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Re: HSH dummy middle pickup?

I wouldn't ruin a good quality pickup. Just use a cheap ceramic OEM. Higher inductance leads to a darker sound and you can fine-tune the inductance by removing the pole pieces until you get something you can live with. I would shield the dummy coil by wrapping it in foil and then use a solid plastic cover.
 
Re: HSH dummy middle pickup?

Someone on a different forum suggested it'd be better to use a single coil with removable magnet bars, and remove the magnets instead of the polepieces, something about inductance and whatnot.

Luckily, I found some dirt cheap singlecoils perfect for this on ebay, so probably giving those a shot, instead of spending too much on a dimarzio that'll jsut end up being used as a dummy coil.
 
Re: HSH dummy middle pickup?

hwiho2002 said:
Someone on a different forum suggested it'd be better to use a single coil with removable magnet bars, and remove the magnets instead of the polepieces, something about inductance and whatnot.
Click to expand...

As recalled by idsnowdog, the solution hasn't to be "all or nothing". The mag(s) has/have to be removed. The poles, not necessarily. If you leave all the inert pole pieces in the dummy coil, it will just give it the highest possible inductance, making the sound a bit beefier, flatter, darker. If conversely you remove all the pole pieces, the dummy will have less inductance and less effect on the overall tone. Leaving 1, 2, 3, 4 or 5 poles instead of 6 is/would be an effective way to "tune" the sound, although it's not the only way to do that...

But it's also a way to tune the "noise floor" of the dummy coil : the more metal parts in it, the most "anti-noisy" it would/will be. The equilibirum would/will be reached with an "anti-noise" of the same amount than the noise and this equilibrium depends partly on the amount of metal left in the dummy coil. Some experiments are required here, ideally with a frequency analyzer allowing to measure the noise of the whole system...


Regarding the Music-Man circuit appreciated by Mincer, here is the related patent, for those who would feel ready to tinker: https://patents.google.com/patent/US5569872

Alternative solution:
https://music-electronics-forum.com...e-electronics-and-a-dummy-coil?t=26986&page=2
 
Re: HSH dummy middle pickup?

Man, my head is bleeding from all the knowledge being thrown at me lol, but I think I got the gist of it.

Split humbucker in parallel with middle singlecoil with no magnet: less hum, but less singlecoil-ish tone

Split humbucker in parallel with middle single coil with no magnet and no polepieces: more singlecoil-ish, but also more hum

If this is the case I'll choose the former, because split humbuckers tend to be too thin for me, so I'd like the extra darkness. Also, I hate hum.
 
Re: HSH dummy middle pickup?

hwiho2002 said:
Man, my head is bleeding from all the knowledge being thrown at me lol, but I think I got the gist of it.

Split humbucker in parallel with middle singlecoil with no magnet: less hum, but less singlecoil-ish tone

Split humbucker in parallel with middle single coil with no magnet and no polepieces: more singlecoil-ish, but also more hum

If this is the case I'll choose the former [...]
Click to expand...

It might be the case... but not necessarily. :-))

In fact, your dummy coil wired alone would be noisy, exactly like your humbuckers in split mode. But when you wire them together, the hum stops. Why?

Because the dummy coil produces its own noise along a wave opposed to the wave of the noisy pickup, as explained here: https://www.seymourduncan.com/blog/latest-updates/how-hum-cancelling-works-part-1

What we want in order to cancel the hum is a same amount of noise and "anti-noise". IOW, a dip of the same depth than the height of each symetrical peak, like in this pic:
https://4de0lh3q29ec37w0f73eq5lg-wp...blogs/wp-content/uploads/HumCancelGraph_2.gif

If the dummy coil produces too much anti-noise, the hum won't be totally cancelled.

Theoretically, the amount of iron in the coil (IOW, the number of poles left in it) should change its sensitivity to noise and should allow to "tune" it, in order to "balance" the noise produced by yours pickups.

That's where experiments become necessary: pull on or off the poles in your dummy coil and listen if it changes the noise or not... then choose what you prefer (if there's any difference, because the noise still depends mainly on the coils. LOL).

Sorry for the tedious explanation... None of my painful messages will replace direct experience. Hope my statements seem a bit clearer, nevertheless. :-)
 
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Re: HSH dummy middle pickup?

Not tedious at all, really. You're right of course, I'll have to experiment to see what I prefer, and I'll certainly do that. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and advice.
 
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