Hum-Sing-Hum. What polarity in middle?
- Thread starter Tonebone
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Lewguitar
Guest
Re: Hum-Sing-Hum. What polarity in middle?
I don't think you'll have a problem with most Duncan Strat single coils being out of phase with a split Duncan humbucker.
If you're interested in having humcancelling when you combine the middle pickup with the slug coil of a Duncan humbucker then it seems to me that you probably want a standard neck model Duncan single coil for the middle pickup as when I hold a standard neck model Duncan single coil against the slug pole of a Duncan humbucker they are attracted, indicating reverse polarity.
But I too would like to know for sure from someone who has actually done this installation in thier own guitars and knows for sure!
Lew
Tonebone said:
I don't think you'll have a problem with most Duncan Strat single coils being out of phase with a split Duncan humbucker.
If you're interested in having humcancelling when you combine the middle pickup with the slug coil of a Duncan humbucker then it seems to me that you probably want a standard neck model Duncan single coil for the middle pickup as when I hold a standard neck model Duncan single coil against the slug pole of a Duncan humbucker they are attracted, indicating reverse polarity.
But I too would like to know for sure from someone who has actually done this installation in thier own guitars and knows for sure!
Lew
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Re: Hum-Sing-Hum. What polarity in middle?
I've got a slew of old Fender pickups I want to try, but Fender seems to change polarity and wind direction depending of the model of pickup!
I would think that magnet polarity wound't matter, because a humbucker has two magnetic fields anyways, right? Only wind direction would come into play.
I've got a slew of old Fender pickups I want to try, but Fender seems to change polarity and wind direction depending of the model of pickup!
I would think that magnet polarity wound't matter, because a humbucker has two magnetic fields anyways, right? Only wind direction would come into play.
Arkitkt
Here's to what Ale's ya!
Re: Hum-Sing-Hum. What polarity in middle?
I'm using a JB - SSL1 - Jazz setup in my strat with three on-off-on switches instead of a 5-way. The screw coils are left active when I split the HBs. Per ArtieToo's (the Grand Master of Wiring) recommendation, I used a RW/RP SC in the middle for hum cancelling.
Out-of-Phase has nothing to do with RW/RP, IIRC (I can switch my SC out-of-phase with the active coil on each of the HBs)
Here's the pattern:
DISCLAIMER: I am by no means a wiring specialist. I just used what the real experts recommended and it seems to work just fine for me.
I'm using a JB - SSL1 - Jazz setup in my strat with three on-off-on switches instead of a 5-way. The screw coils are left active when I split the HBs. Per ArtieToo's (the Grand Master of Wiring) recommendation, I used a RW/RP SC in the middle for hum cancelling.
Out-of-Phase has nothing to do with RW/RP, IIRC (I can switch my SC out-of-phase with the active coil on each of the HBs)
Here's the pattern:
DISCLAIMER: I am by no means a wiring specialist. I just used what the real experts recommended and it seems to work just fine for me.
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Re: Hum-Sing-Hum. What polarity in middle?
I'm pretty sure most SD full sized humbuckers have the slug side of the coil as South with the screw side as North. I don't know if this really helps or not. I'm not sure how their single coils are though, however.
Most manufacturers have the slug side as being the south side, I believe. I ran into a problem mixing schaller humbuckers with duncan pickups. Schallers have their slug side as North and in order to to use it with a duncan pickup in a LP, I had to either switch the ground or lead wires, or mount the pickup "the wrong way" by turning it 180.
If you get a pickup that is "reverse" wound for the middle position, then you will wire the bridge humbucker normally. The neck humbucker will probably have to have it's ground and lead wired switch, or have the pickup rotated 180 and mounted "the wrong way" in order to sound good with the middle humbucker. However, by doing this, the neck and bridge humbuckers will sound out of phase and thin. This is not an issue if you don't want the neck and bridge humbucker combo.
I'm not sure how this works with coil tapping. I'm not sure if I'm 100% right, but it's what seems to work on my experiences.
Tom
I'm pretty sure most SD full sized humbuckers have the slug side of the coil as South with the screw side as North. I don't know if this really helps or not. I'm not sure how their single coils are though, however.
Most manufacturers have the slug side as being the south side, I believe. I ran into a problem mixing schaller humbuckers with duncan pickups. Schallers have their slug side as North and in order to to use it with a duncan pickup in a LP, I had to either switch the ground or lead wires, or mount the pickup "the wrong way" by turning it 180.
If you get a pickup that is "reverse" wound for the middle position, then you will wire the bridge humbucker normally. The neck humbucker will probably have to have it's ground and lead wired switch, or have the pickup rotated 180 and mounted "the wrong way" in order to sound good with the middle humbucker. However, by doing this, the neck and bridge humbuckers will sound out of phase and thin. This is not an issue if you don't want the neck and bridge humbucker combo.
I'm not sure how this works with coil tapping. I'm not sure if I'm 100% right, but it's what seems to work on my experiences.
Tom
Arkitkt
Here's to what Ale's ya!
Re: Hum-Sing-Hum. What polarity in middle?
Here's my take on it (and I might be absolutely wrong :22: ):
You can use any SC with any HB. If you get an out-of-phase sound, you need to reverse the leads on the SC and you should be set. (Basically the same thing I do per switch on my strat)
Hum-cancelling, however, is only achieved when the SC winding and polarity are the opposite of the HB-coil you're using. Since you can leave either coil of the HBs active, you can achieve hum-cancelling with any SC.
Tonebone said:
Here's my take on it (and I might be absolutely wrong :22: ):
You can use any SC with any HB. If you get an out-of-phase sound, you need to reverse the leads on the SC and you should be set. (Basically the same thing I do per switch on my strat)
Hum-cancelling, however, is only achieved when the SC winding and polarity are the opposite of the HB-coil you're using. Since you can leave either coil of the HBs active, you can achieve hum-cancelling with any SC.
Re: Hum-Sing-Hum. What polarity in middle?
All standard pickups work fine (non-RWRP middle) in an H-S-H set up. Wire each pickup as per included instructions. The slug coils will be active when split. For this reason, I choose to reverse the mounting on my neck HB so the slug side is closer to the neck (sounds better when split). For reference, I'm using an APH-1n, SSL-5 tapped and a TB-APH-1b in a Tom Anderson Drop Top. I have a master splitter and a push pull to add the bridge to neck or neck/mid combos. None of the positions are out of phase. Only the neck/mid and bridge/mid combos are hum-canceling. Hope this helps.
EDIT: That should read, "All standard *Duncan* pickups..." - meaning that the middle pickup should not be RWRP and the humbuckers should be standard issue. This will ensure hum-cancelling in positions 2 and 4 on a 5-way with the humbuckers split and combined with the middle pickup.
All standard pickups work fine (non-RWRP middle) in an H-S-H set up. Wire each pickup as per included instructions. The slug coils will be active when split. For this reason, I choose to reverse the mounting on my neck HB so the slug side is closer to the neck (sounds better when split). For reference, I'm using an APH-1n, SSL-5 tapped and a TB-APH-1b in a Tom Anderson Drop Top. I have a master splitter and a push pull to add the bridge to neck or neck/mid combos. None of the positions are out of phase. Only the neck/mid and bridge/mid combos are hum-canceling. Hope this helps.
EDIT: That should read, "All standard *Duncan* pickups..." - meaning that the middle pickup should not be RWRP and the humbuckers should be standard issue. This will ensure hum-cancelling in positions 2 and 4 on a 5-way with the humbuckers split and combined with the middle pickup.
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Re: Hum-Sing-Hum. What polarity in middle?
Manufacturer's specs on various pickups can be found here: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Electro...witch/Instructions/I-3200/Page_2.html#details
A multimeter can also be used to test for polarity. Only an analog multimeter should be used. Set the multimeter to AC at the lowest setting. Then, connect the hot lead on the multimeter to the hot lead on the single coil. Vice versa for the ground lead. Now tap the pickup's polepieces using a metal object and you'll be able to see a movement of the multimeter's needle to the right. If it moves cleanly to the right, take note of that. Now, test another pickup in the same fashion and if the needle jerks to the left slightly then moves to the right, then this pickup is opposite in polarity to the pickup in the previous test. Of course, there must be consistency in assigning the leads.
Let's put this in the context of Duncan pickups. Assume we have a HSH setup whereby all are duncan pups. Problem is, you don't know what polarity is the middle pickup. First, start by checking the magnetic polarity of the pickup. If the pickup is attracted to the slug poles then most likely you'll get hum cancelling when using the middle pickup with the slug poles. I said 'most likely' because now you have to determine if the winding direction of the middle pickup and slug pole are opposite of each other. (RW/RP)
The hot of the slug pole is the black lead and the ground is the white lead. The red lead of the screw pole is the hot lead and the green is the ground lead. Hence the white and red leads are otherwise known as the series link. Ok assuming the duncan middle pickup has white and black leads and according to the specs, the white lead should be hot. Therefore we can now assign the multimeter's leads to the picukp. Hot on the multimeter should be red, hence red goes to the white lead black goes to the black lead. Now, take a screwdriver and tap the polepieces. Watch how the needle moves and that's how you would determine if the pickups are in phase or out of phase. Do the same of the slug pole and compare the results. The needle movement will be subtle and sometimes not easy to detect.
Manufacturer's specs on various pickups can be found here: http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Electro...witch/Instructions/I-3200/Page_2.html#details
A multimeter can also be used to test for polarity. Only an analog multimeter should be used. Set the multimeter to AC at the lowest setting. Then, connect the hot lead on the multimeter to the hot lead on the single coil. Vice versa for the ground lead. Now tap the pickup's polepieces using a metal object and you'll be able to see a movement of the multimeter's needle to the right. If it moves cleanly to the right, take note of that. Now, test another pickup in the same fashion and if the needle jerks to the left slightly then moves to the right, then this pickup is opposite in polarity to the pickup in the previous test. Of course, there must be consistency in assigning the leads.
Let's put this in the context of Duncan pickups. Assume we have a HSH setup whereby all are duncan pups. Problem is, you don't know what polarity is the middle pickup. First, start by checking the magnetic polarity of the pickup. If the pickup is attracted to the slug poles then most likely you'll get hum cancelling when using the middle pickup with the slug poles. I said 'most likely' because now you have to determine if the winding direction of the middle pickup and slug pole are opposite of each other. (RW/RP)
The hot of the slug pole is the black lead and the ground is the white lead. The red lead of the screw pole is the hot lead and the green is the ground lead. Hence the white and red leads are otherwise known as the series link. Ok assuming the duncan middle pickup has white and black leads and according to the specs, the white lead should be hot. Therefore we can now assign the multimeter's leads to the picukp. Hot on the multimeter should be red, hence red goes to the white lead black goes to the black lead. Now, take a screwdriver and tap the polepieces. Watch how the needle moves and that's how you would determine if the pickups are in phase or out of phase. Do the same of the slug pole and compare the results. The needle movement will be subtle and sometimes not easy to detect.
Gearjoneser
Gear Ho
Re: Hum-Sing-Hum. What polarity in middle?
The only thing I can offer is this. If you want to reverse a humbucker, use the green as hot and black/silver together as ground. If you want to reverse a single coil, just reverse the hot and ground wires.
The only thing I can offer is this. If you want to reverse a humbucker, use the green as hot and black/silver together as ground. If you want to reverse a single coil, just reverse the hot and ground wires.
L
Lewguitar
Guest
Re: Hum-Sing-Hum. What polarity in middle?
I'm sure you are right.
But I'll tell you: I wish Seymour would just join in on this thread and set the record straight!
Arkitkt said:
I'm sure you are right.
But I'll tell you: I wish Seymour would just join in on this thread and set the record straight!
Artie
Peaveyologist
Re: Hum-Sing-Hum. What polarity in middle?
Thanks for the vote of confidence . . . but RW/RP, humcancelling, and internal phasing is my weakest area in guitar pups. I'm still trying to get this straight in my head. Kent S. is much more the expert in this area.
The couple things I could comment on are, someone said that the stud coil is selected when you split a humbucker. Actually, either coil can be selected. Its just a matter of whether you short the red/white combo to ground or hot. Its your choice, and consequently, will then hum-cancel with either polarity of single coil.
Figuring out which you have is the trick.
btw - you can do the polarity test with a digital meter also. Any decent DMM will show a "minus" sign, when the voltage goes negative. Attach the meter to the leads, place a piece of metal against the poles, then pull it away quickly. Watch for the appearance of the minus sign.
I'll add more as I "get" it, but this is my foggiest pup area. :yell:
Arkitkt said:
Thanks for the vote of confidence . . . but RW/RP, humcancelling, and internal phasing is my weakest area in guitar pups. I'm still trying to get this straight in my head. Kent S. is much more the expert in this area.
The couple things I could comment on are, someone said that the stud coil is selected when you split a humbucker. Actually, either coil can be selected. Its just a matter of whether you short the red/white combo to ground or hot. Its your choice, and consequently, will then hum-cancel with either polarity of single coil.
Figuring out which you have is the trick.
btw - you can do the polarity test with a digital meter also. Any decent DMM will show a "minus" sign, when the voltage goes negative. Attach the meter to the leads, place a piece of metal against the poles, then pull it away quickly. Watch for the appearance of the minus sign.
I'll add more as I "get" it, but this is my foggiest pup area. :yell:
Arkitkt
Here's to what Ale's ya!
Re: Hum-Sing-Hum. What polarity in middle?
OK - I'll give it another try:
The only reason for installing RW/RP SCs in the middle position is to achieve hum-cancelling when using the 2 and 4 positions on the 5-way switch.
If you need to use a regular or RW/RP SC in the middle position depends only on which coils of the HBs you want to use.
- If you want to use the slug coils (usually the inner coils), you need to use a regular SC in the middle for hum-cancelling.
- if you want to use the screw coils (like myself), you need a RW/RP for hum cancelling.
As suggested earlier, you could always just install the HB's upside down, but I find that solution aesthetically unsatisfactory, especially when using SD-PUs with THE MAN's name printed on them.
Out-of-phase sound has nothing to do with RW/RP. You can achieve an out-of-phase sound by simply reversing the leads on the SC, no matter if it's a regular or RW/RP. If you accidentally get the out-of-phase sound, you need to reverse the leads to get the in-phase sound. If you want to have both options, install a switch (mini-toggle, push-pull, push-push etc.) that will reverse the leads if so desired.
As to " How do I leave only the screw coil (or slug coil) active", see the diagrams provided in this link.
This is a wiring diagram for the described switching options with a 5-way instead of the individual toggle-switches I'm using.
I hope that helps.
OK - I'll give it another try:
The only reason for installing RW/RP SCs in the middle position is to achieve hum-cancelling when using the 2 and 4 positions on the 5-way switch.
If you need to use a regular or RW/RP SC in the middle position depends only on which coils of the HBs you want to use.
- If you want to use the slug coils (usually the inner coils), you need to use a regular SC in the middle for hum-cancelling.
- if you want to use the screw coils (like myself), you need a RW/RP for hum cancelling.
As suggested earlier, you could always just install the HB's upside down, but I find that solution aesthetically unsatisfactory, especially when using SD-PUs with THE MAN's name printed on them.
Out-of-phase sound has nothing to do with RW/RP. You can achieve an out-of-phase sound by simply reversing the leads on the SC, no matter if it's a regular or RW/RP. If you accidentally get the out-of-phase sound, you need to reverse the leads to get the in-phase sound. If you want to have both options, install a switch (mini-toggle, push-pull, push-push etc.) that will reverse the leads if so desired.
As to " How do I leave only the screw coil (or slug coil) active", see the diagrams provided in this link.
This is a wiring diagram for the described switching options with a 5-way instead of the individual toggle-switches I'm using.
I hope that helps.
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Arkitkt
Here's to what Ale's ya!
Re: Hum-Sing-Hum. What polarity in middle?
You'll either get hum-cancelling on only one of the two "between" sounds or you'd have to install one of the HBs upside down (which IMHO looks like cr@p, as I said earlier). :laugh2: :laugh2:
incognito said:
You'll either get hum-cancelling on only one of the two "between" sounds or you'd have to install one of the HBs upside down (which IMHO looks like cr@p, as I said earlier). :laugh2: :laugh2:
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