Humbucker questions (PG related)

L

lemonman

New member
Hello all, I'm new to the forum, although I've been lurking for quite some time. I must say this is the most knowledgable site for pickup discussion I've seen, and I'm really pleased with how civilized and helpful you all seem to be; I really enjoy reading up here! I'm another of the apparently large group of middle aged guys who played (mostly bass back then) in their teens & twenties, then put it aside for many years, only to return to it. I may not be able to jump around like I did twenty years ago, but I can afford better gear now:smokin:

I have a number of questions that I'll try & spread out a bit. First up is a question about variation in production pups these days. We all know how widely old PAFs varied; are modern pieces much tighter tolerance?

I ask because I recently installed a PGb in one of my LPs, because I loved how a PGb sounded in a different LP of mine. The guitars sound fairly similar acoustically, with one being a little more midrangey (this is the guitar I just installed the PG in). Both are quite loud acoustically. To my surprise and disappointment, it sounded really lousy in that guitar. I never would have guessed that, seeing as how much I love that pup in the other axe.

It got me wondering if it's just a poor match for the guitar, or if that 2nd pup is inferior (to my ears) to the first PG I bought. The first measures 8.4k, the second is 8.6 and also covered.

So that's my question- have you found that there's a significant difference between the same model pups? Obviously there's some variation, but say if you grabbed three that measured close to the same, would they all sound distinctly different in the same axe?
 
Re: Humbucker questions (PG related)

All 3 pickups should sound the same. Are the electronics in both guitars the same?
 
Re: Humbucker questions (PG related)

Welcome, lemonman!

Duncan QC is outstanding so you can pretty well dismiss the one you have as being a random dud unless it was tampered with. Also, the difference between 8.4K and 8.6K is not only negligible but undiscernable. The difference in sound with the same pickup in one guitar or another however, can be huge. In the case of the PG, it isn't a high output pickup. Consequently, it will rely heavily on the inherent tone of the particular guitar and it's hardware that it's in for a significant portion of it's tone. I've definitely found this to be true with a Pearly Gates in particular, due in part to it's mismatched coils.
 
Re: Humbucker questions (PG related)

Thanks guys! I was hoping there wasn't a lot of variation, but having never tried multiples of the same SD pup before I wasn't sure. The pots are virtually the same between them, the guitar in question had new 500k CTS pots installed at the same time as the pups; the other LP's pots I measured at 485-490k or so. I doubt that could be enough difference to account for my findings.

Martian, I believe you about the differences in guitars, I'm just surprised how much a difference this was. Clearly the guitar itself has a strong influence on the final tone.I do have some past pup swapping experience, although most of it has been in strats. As of late I find myself really leaning towards my LPs, and have begun to swap pups in them, as well.

BTW, I ended up swapping an A2Pro in place of the PG, and it really sings in this guitar, I'm quite happy now. If it hadn't worked out I would be looking heavily at the VPAF and VHPAF which you seem to like a great deal. Can you compare the A2P with the VPAF?
 
Re: Humbucker questions (PG related)

lemonman,

As you've witnessed first hand, the difference can be astonishing.

You asked me to compare the VPAF vs. the A2P. Naturally, this is my opinion, based on my experiences. Of course, YMMV as well as many others:

In the bridge position, the VPAF will have a much tighter bass, about the same mids and clearer highs than the A2P. The VPAF is a touch louder and will also out sustain the A2P. With the VPAF in either neck or bridge position, you'll also hear a "3D" quality to it which replaces the oftentimes, "nasal" characteristics of a PAF ilk pickup. I'm not saying whether this is good or bad. I'm simply saying this characteristic is not there. Specifically, this "3D" tone sounds like a full sized HB being co-dubbed with a single coil tone AND you will also hear the guitar's acoustic qualities coming through all at the same time.

In the neck position, this is where the VPAF is the clear winner in the sense that all the aforementioned qualities shine through here as well. It is slightly less powerful than the bridge position model. To me, the A2P in the neck simply sounds like a generic "T Top" Gibson HB of the late 60s or early 70s. It's bass can be overwhelming, the mids are OK and the high end is ever so slightly but annoyingly lacking. Yea, I know, Slash, 'this and that' but he EQs his guitars any way and from what I've read, his AP2s are made in Duncan's Custom Shop so they aren't the production models either.

As to the VHPAF (designed for the bridge position), it's like the VPAF with expanded mids and lows; the treble is the same and the output is higher than the regular bridge VPAF.

Of note is the fact that for coil tapping and splitting, I've yet to hear better than what the VPAF or VHPAF has to offer and they are VERY sensitive to pick and/or finger attack.

Don't get me wrong, I love some of Seymour Duncan's pickups too. Notwithstanding, I've yet to find ANY PAF ilk combo to be more versatile than the VHPAF/VPAF. They, to me are the perfect, all purpose "PAF-ish" combo. It's like if you where only to take out one guitar to play anything and everything on, you'd choose the guitar with the VHPAF/VPAF first with utmost confidence and without any hesitation.


lemonman said:
Thanks guys! I was hoping there wasn't a lot of variation, but having never tried multiples of the same SD pup before I wasn't sure. The pots are virtually the same between them, the guitar in question had new 500k CTS pots installed at the same time as the pups; the other LP's pots I measured at 485-490k or so. I doubt that could be enough difference to account for my findings.

Martian, I believe you about the differences in guitars, I'm just surprised how much a difference this was. Clearly the guitar itself has a strong influence on the final tone.I do have some past pup swapping experience, although most of it has been in strats. As of late I find myself really leaning towards my LPs, and have begun to swap pups in them, as well.

BTW, I ended up swapping an A2Pro in place of the PG, and it really sings in this guitar, I'm quite happy now. If it hadn't worked out I would be looking heavily at the VPAF and VHPAF which you seem to like a great deal. Can you compare the A2P with the VPAF?
Click to expand...
 
Re: Humbucker questions (PG related)

lemonman said:
I'm another of the apparently large group of middle aged guys who played (mostly bass back then) in their teens & twenties, then put it aside for many years, only to return to it. I may not be able to jump around like I did twenty years ago, but I can afford better gear now:smokin:
Click to expand...

Man i am 24 and looking for a job, for some reason seems like everyone (GF, Family etc..) is considering playing guitar a waste of time and i'm being critised for playing and "wasting my time" on guitar forums and changing pickups the time.

So i'm glad to see that "a large group of middle aged guys" returned to it.
Gives me hope to carry on.
Not like the "do you think you'll still be wishing to play in a rock band when you'll be 55 ?" bull****

I'll survive...... This is just a test !
 
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Re: Humbucker questions (PG related)

Hang in there!

FYI: My grandaughter at 5 years old has come to one of my gigs!!

Playing guitar is as much a part of my life as breathing is. I say this all the time: It doesn't matter how good you are, as long as you enjoy it, that's all that counts. Playing guitar is even more enjoyable when you don't try to compete with others. Then, it's all about pure fun and musical satisfaction. I don't even call myself, a musician. Being a musician implies you want to learn everything there is about the art. I simply call myself, a guitar player, just doing my thing, playing what I like.
 
Re: Humbucker questions (PG related)

:smokin: Yeah.:approve: :approve: :approve: :approve:

Good to hear (read actually)
 
Re: Humbucker questions (PG related)

Thanks for the impressions of the VPAF family, Martian. I'm sure I'll try some in the not so distant future.

Orange, I know what you mean about it being looked down upon, or at least barely tolerated. I realize now, after having been away from it so long, that music was, and still is, a major part of me. Starting over was like returning home for me.

I'll never be great, or probably even "good", but I enjoy it immensely. Barring some sort of physical reason I'll be staying with it this time. And I just gave my 20 year old nephew his first taste of the real thing this past weekend, after he showed me his "Rock Star Guitar" or whatever it's called video game. I challenged him to try the real thing. After a couple hours of wanking he took a cheap LP copy of mine home to practice on- I think another has joined our ranks:D
 
Re: Humbucker questions (PG related)

lemonman said:
Thanks for the impressions of the VPAF family, Martian. I'm sure I'll try some in the not so distant future...
Click to expand...

Glad to be of assistance.

Of significant note is the polepiece spacing of DiMarzio HBs. Their "Standard Spaced" would be better termed as, "Neck Spaced". See, inherently, DiMarzio polepiece spacing is closer together than say, a Gibson or certainly, a Duncan. This is a good thing because many a standard spaced pickup is still too wide (polepiece wise) in the neck position of many a LP. Conversely, DiMarzio "F Spaced" pickups are of the same spacing as a Gibson 498T or 500T, meaning, Gibson's bridge model pickup. DiMarzio's "F" spacing is no where near as wide as Duncan "Trembucker" spacing however. So, ANY DiMarzio bought for the bridge position of a LP (or most Gibsons for that matter) should be "F Spaced" whereas ANY DiMarzio bought for the neck should be "Standard Spaced".
 
Re: Humbucker questions (PG related)

Hey man, I hear ya!! I heard all the REAL JOB crap from the time I was 15....I just turned 60, I play 2 nights a week for crowds of 150 to 300 people, on the Navajo Indian Rez,earn enough $ to pay my bills, recently invested in the best equipment I could get, including a Boss BR-600 recorder, and am finishing up my second CD...so do I think I'll still wanna rock when I'm 55? Man, I still wanna play music when I'm 85....listen to your soul...that's what it's there for...





Orange said:
Man i am 24 and looking for a job, for some reason seems like everyone (GF, Family etc..) is considering playing guitar a waste of time and i'm being critised for playing and "wasting my time" on guitar forums and changing pickups the time.

So i'm glad to see that "a large group of middle aged guys" returned to it.
Gives me hope to carry on.
Not like the "do you think you'll still be wishing to play in a rock band when you'll be 55 ?" bull****

I'll survive...... This is just a test !
Click to expand...
 
Re: Humbucker questions (PG related)

Martian said:
Welcome, lemonman!

Duncan QC is outstanding so you can pretty well dismiss the one you have as being a random dud unless it was tampered with. Also, the difference between 8.4K and 8.6K is not only negligible but undiscernable. The difference in sound with the same pickup in one guitar or another however, can be huge. In the case of the PG, it isn't a high output pickup. Consequently, it will rely heavily on the inherent tone of the particular guitar and it's hardware that it's in for a significant portion of it's tone. I've definitely found this to be true with a Pearly Gates in particular, due in part to it's mismatched coils.
Click to expand...

I tried the Pearly Gates set in an LP and was very disappointed, so I sold them immediately. I probably should have tried them in my other LP, because most people who use them really rave about them. I am wanting to get another set to try in a different guitar, but am squeamish because of my experience with the first set. I'm hoping the difference between the two guitars will be like night and day!

-Mark
 
Re: Humbucker questions (PG related)

sometimes the mojo works, sometimes it doesn't. You are a wise man Lemonman for:
a) Checking for alternative suggestions first
b) Not trying to force something that just wasn't working

I love the PG, but if that A2P sings, your ears called it right. Good work!
 
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