Humbucker with 250k pots?
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blueman335
Mojo's Minions
Re: Humbucker with 250k pots?
This topic has spurred some of the hottest arguments here. The standard configuration for most manufacturers with HB's is all 500K's, with many players rolling down their tone pots on the bridge PU. Gibson likes to mix 500K and 300K on both the bridge and neck.
There is a small contingent of us that prefers one or two 250K/300K pots on bridge PU's, rather then turning down the tone knob. It takes off the most piercing of the high end, and in doing so makes the mids seem more prominent. One 250K does it a little, two 250K's do it noticeably more. But this doesn't happen in a vacuum. There's other factors that influence treble, like the string gauge, whether you down-tune, amp EQ settings, cord type and length, whether your pedals are true-bypass or not, etc. The final sound is the end result of many variables. One of the reasons 250K bridges work for me is that I use thin strings (9's) in standard tuning with sharp edged picks. With my guitars there's very few bridge PU's I like with 500K's and the tone pot on '10'. Too much treble for me. So rather then fiddle with the tone pot every time I plug in, or throughout the time I'm playing, I want both my bridge and neck PU's to sound their best with both tone pots on '10'. A radical theory indeed. To achieve that, I use a combination of replacement magnets, pots, resistors (a 470K resistor makes a 500K pot sound like a 250K), and wirings.
I also want my neck PU's to have some high end bite to them, and don't like muddy tones. So for them, I use 500K's and in some LP's, one or two 1meg pots for the additional treble. In other words, I try to get my PU's closer to each other in EQ so that one amp EQ setting work well for both PU's. Other players like big differences between the two. It's all personal preference, with no right or wrong. Whatever sounds good to you.
Interestingly, some of the guys who say 250K's on bridge PU's are too warm-sounding, at the same time like neck HB's that are too warm and rounded for my tastes.
The easiest and cheapest way to try it is to get some 470K resistors, and try one on a bridge 500K pot. Solder the resistor to the outside lugs of the pot. You can try it on the other bridge pot. If you don't like it, cut one or both off. Only costs pennies and takes a couple minutes. Decide for yourself.
This topic has spurred some of the hottest arguments here. The standard configuration for most manufacturers with HB's is all 500K's, with many players rolling down their tone pots on the bridge PU. Gibson likes to mix 500K and 300K on both the bridge and neck.
There is a small contingent of us that prefers one or two 250K/300K pots on bridge PU's, rather then turning down the tone knob. It takes off the most piercing of the high end, and in doing so makes the mids seem more prominent. One 250K does it a little, two 250K's do it noticeably more. But this doesn't happen in a vacuum. There's other factors that influence treble, like the string gauge, whether you down-tune, amp EQ settings, cord type and length, whether your pedals are true-bypass or not, etc. The final sound is the end result of many variables. One of the reasons 250K bridges work for me is that I use thin strings (9's) in standard tuning with sharp edged picks. With my guitars there's very few bridge PU's I like with 500K's and the tone pot on '10'. Too much treble for me. So rather then fiddle with the tone pot every time I plug in, or throughout the time I'm playing, I want both my bridge and neck PU's to sound their best with both tone pots on '10'. A radical theory indeed. To achieve that, I use a combination of replacement magnets, pots, resistors (a 470K resistor makes a 500K pot sound like a 250K), and wirings.
I also want my neck PU's to have some high end bite to them, and don't like muddy tones. So for them, I use 500K's and in some LP's, one or two 1meg pots for the additional treble. In other words, I try to get my PU's closer to each other in EQ so that one amp EQ setting work well for both PU's. Other players like big differences between the two. It's all personal preference, with no right or wrong. Whatever sounds good to you.
Interestingly, some of the guys who say 250K's on bridge PU's are too warm-sounding, at the same time like neck HB's that are too warm and rounded for my tastes.
The easiest and cheapest way to try it is to get some 470K resistors, and try one on a bridge 500K pot. Solder the resistor to the outside lugs of the pot. You can try it on the other bridge pot. If you don't like it, cut one or both off. Only costs pennies and takes a couple minutes. Decide for yourself.
blueman335
Mojo's Minions
Re: Humbucker with 250k pots?
Don't you want a warmer bridge tone? Bridge P-90's can be pretty shrill. It should be the one with a volume and tone pot.
Don't you want a warmer bridge tone? Bridge P-90's can be pretty shrill. It should be the one with a volume and tone pot.
treyhaislip
Well-known member
Re: Humbucker with 250k pots?
Go with what sounds best to you for a specific guitar, the pots are a great way to fine tweak a guitar that sounds great but is off just a bit–too bright or warm.
Go with what sounds best to you for a specific guitar, the pots are a great way to fine tweak a guitar that sounds great but is off just a bit–too bright or warm.
Lewguitar
New member
Re: Humbucker with 250k pots?
You can hear it for yourself if you have a guitar with humbuckers and 500K pots.
Just turn those 500K pots down to around 7 to hear what 250K pots would sound like. It's not a bad sound...but it's not a sound I'd want to be locked into all of the time.
If you go with 250K pots you cannot get the sound of 500K pots...but with 500K pots you can get the sound of 250K pots by simply turning those 500K pots down to 250K.
There's a reason that "There is a small contingent...that prefers one or two 250K/300K pots on bridge PU's" rather than a large contingent...and that's that most players prefer the tone of actual '57, '58 and '59 Gibson Les Pauls, ES-335s, etc.
Those Gibson guitars that created the classic blues and rock tones most of us love had 500K pots...not 250K.
Something else to bear in mind: when the two pickups on a Les Paul or ES-335 are combined you also combine the pots.
Pots are resistors. Variable resistors. When you combine two 500K resistors in parallel you get 250K...which is why you lose some treble and output in the middle position on a Les Paul or ES-335.
If you use 250K pots in your Les Paul guitar, when you combine the two pickups you're down to 125K. That's only 25% of the 500K load that most players think sounds best.
It's also one big reason I prefer the tone of my guitars with a single master volume and single master tone...rather than having two volume and two tone controls to deal with.
But there's only one way to discover what's right for you and that's to experience the effect of both.
And you can do that by turning 500K pots down to about "7".
You can hear it for yourself if you have a guitar with humbuckers and 500K pots.
Just turn those 500K pots down to around 7 to hear what 250K pots would sound like. It's not a bad sound...but it's not a sound I'd want to be locked into all of the time.
If you go with 250K pots you cannot get the sound of 500K pots...but with 500K pots you can get the sound of 250K pots by simply turning those 500K pots down to 250K.
There's a reason that "There is a small contingent...that prefers one or two 250K/300K pots on bridge PU's" rather than a large contingent...and that's that most players prefer the tone of actual '57, '58 and '59 Gibson Les Pauls, ES-335s, etc.
Those Gibson guitars that created the classic blues and rock tones most of us love had 500K pots...not 250K.
Something else to bear in mind: when the two pickups on a Les Paul or ES-335 are combined you also combine the pots.
Pots are resistors. Variable resistors. When you combine two 500K resistors in parallel you get 250K...which is why you lose some treble and output in the middle position on a Les Paul or ES-335.
If you use 250K pots in your Les Paul guitar, when you combine the two pickups you're down to 125K. That's only 25% of the 500K load that most players think sounds best.
It's also one big reason I prefer the tone of my guitars with a single master volume and single master tone...rather than having two volume and two tone controls to deal with.
But there's only one way to discover what's right for you and that's to experience the effect of both.
And you can do that by turning 500K pots down to about "7".
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blueman335
Mojo's Minions
Re: Humbucker with 250k pots?
- One of the virtues of 250K's on my bridge PU's is that they do not and will not sound like 500K's.
Most manufacturers use the same pot values in a guitar because it makes inventories and production easier to manage. It's not a tone-based decision. It's costs and simplicity that drive that. They buy one value in bulk and get better pricing, out-of-stocks are less likely to occur, & they don't have to worry about workers putting them in the wrong location.
- The biggest reason that most guitars have the stock pots, is that most players don't change the electronics or PU's in their guitars, whatever they happen to be. If they don't like the sound, they sell the guitar. Very few players know that there even are different pot values or that they can change the tone. It's rarely a conscious decision. I've talked to many guitarists on break at live gigs and blues festivals. No matter how good a player they are, almost none of them know what kind of PU's are in their guitar ('the stock ones!'), and even fewer know that pots come in different values. The overwhelming 'preference' for 500K's is largely due to the fact that most people don't know they have a choice. We're a small group of tweakers here, not representative of the average guitar player, who's never touched a soldering iron or done a simple set up. You start talking to him about pots, and his eyes glaze over. You might as well be talking Chinese.
Many players here use replacement magnets in their HB's and P-90's to alter the EQ. A large number of them are using warmer magnets in the bridge PU to dial down the treble. It's just a different approach to the same issue: bridge PU's can be pretty darn bright. There's many factors that impact a guitar's EQ; choose the ones that you work for you.
- One of the virtues of 250K's on my bridge PU's is that they do not and will not sound like 500K's.
Most manufacturers use the same pot values in a guitar because it makes inventories and production easier to manage. It's not a tone-based decision. It's costs and simplicity that drive that. They buy one value in bulk and get better pricing, out-of-stocks are less likely to occur, & they don't have to worry about workers putting them in the wrong location.
- The biggest reason that most guitars have the stock pots, is that most players don't change the electronics or PU's in their guitars, whatever they happen to be. If they don't like the sound, they sell the guitar. Very few players know that there even are different pot values or that they can change the tone. It's rarely a conscious decision. I've talked to many guitarists on break at live gigs and blues festivals. No matter how good a player they are, almost none of them know what kind of PU's are in their guitar ('the stock ones!'), and even fewer know that pots come in different values. The overwhelming 'preference' for 500K's is largely due to the fact that most people don't know they have a choice. We're a small group of tweakers here, not representative of the average guitar player, who's never touched a soldering iron or done a simple set up. You start talking to him about pots, and his eyes glaze over. You might as well be talking Chinese.
Many players here use replacement magnets in their HB's and P-90's to alter the EQ. A large number of them are using warmer magnets in the bridge PU to dial down the treble. It's just a different approach to the same issue: bridge PU's can be pretty darn bright. There's many factors that impact a guitar's EQ; choose the ones that you work for you.
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Kamanda~SD
New member
Re: Humbucker with 250k pots?
FWIW I use 250k pots in all my humbucker guitars. Mainly play super strats through JCM800s so the last thing I need is more brightness
FWIW I use 250k pots in all my humbucker guitars. Mainly play super strats through JCM800s so the last thing I need is more brightness
blueman335
Mojo's Minions
Re: Humbucker with 250k pots?
Once again, freedom of choice wins out. You've got a bright guitar, and 500K's just may not be the best fit for you. This is not a one-size-fits-all kind of thing.
Once again, freedom of choice wins out. You've got a bright guitar, and 500K's just may not be the best fit for you. This is not a one-size-fits-all kind of thing.
Lewguitar
New member
Re: Humbucker with 250k pots?
Whole different animal than a Gibson Les Paul or ES-335.
You almost don't have any other choice but to use 250K pots in a Super Strat.
The single coils sound way to bright with 500K and the bridge humbucker might sound way to loud as well.
Personally, Super Strats do not work for me.
To much of a compromise.
John Suhr has a pretty nifty way of wiring them though, so that the single coils see a 250K load and the humbucker sees 500K.
Here's a link: http://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/wiring-options-for-hss-strat.1256845/
I was going to try it with an old MIJ Strat I was thinking of putting a Pearly Gates bridge pickup in.
Then I traded an EJ Strat for a PRS Custom 22 and with three guitars now with humbuckers, there was no need to put a humbucker in my old Strat.
Whole different animal than a Gibson Les Paul or ES-335.
You almost don't have any other choice but to use 250K pots in a Super Strat.
The single coils sound way to bright with 500K and the bridge humbucker might sound way to loud as well.
Personally, Super Strats do not work for me.
To much of a compromise.
John Suhr has a pretty nifty way of wiring them though, so that the single coils see a 250K load and the humbucker sees 500K.
Here's a link: http://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/wiring-options-for-hss-strat.1256845/
I was going to try it with an old MIJ Strat I was thinking of putting a Pearly Gates bridge pickup in.
Then I traded an EJ Strat for a PRS Custom 22 and with three guitars now with humbuckers, there was no need to put a humbucker in my old Strat.
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Davii
New member
Re: Humbucker with 250k pots?
I've got the standard Gibson config in everything, other than my double neck, which has 250/500k concentric pots (250ks as volumes), and I don't notice a great deal of difference to be honest. 250/500k not being that far off 300/500k, plus +/- 10%, I guess that's no real surprise.
I've got the standard Gibson config in everything, other than my double neck, which has 250/500k concentric pots (250ks as volumes), and I don't notice a great deal of difference to be honest. 250/500k not being that far off 300/500k, plus +/- 10%, I guess that's no real surprise.
IMENATOR
Well-known member
Re: Humbucker with 250k pots?
Frank Falbo's article on pots and caps, LP slyle guitar with HBs thru different pots and caps. With amazing sound clips
http://www.premierguitar.com/articles/23145-cap-and-pot-trade
Frank Falbo's article on pots and caps, LP slyle guitar with HBs thru different pots and caps. With amazing sound clips
http://www.premierguitar.com/articles/23145-cap-and-pot-trade
blueman335
Mojo's Minions
Re: Humbucker with 250k pots?
A few interesting quotes from Frank Falbo's article:
1) "Old Gibsons had 250k pots, but their humbuckers were relatively low output, with low DC resistance compared to modern rock and metal humbuckers"
This contradicts Lew saying: "Those Gibson guitars that created the classic blues and rock tones most of us love had 500K pots...not 250K." Who's right?
2) "You can also mix values in a Les Paul-type guitar. For example, you might mellow the bridge with 250k and sharpen the neck with 500k."
Nice to hear a PU expert confirm that it's a viable option.
3) "When Seymour himself uses one (JB), it’s often with 250k pots, playing with his bare fingers. Wired and played this way, the pickup produces a thicker, stronger, warmer tone."
A quote from Jim at Scumback Speakers that Lew posted last week: "I've never heard a 300k pot loaded guitar that sounded as good as a 500k pot loaded guitar (unless it was a Strat)...ever." Seymour obviously has a different opinion on that than Jim and Lew.
4) "Have you ever lowered your tone control to zero and felt like your guitar just got louder? How can that be if you’re taking frequencies away? Because the resonant peak frequency just descended into a more audible—and more energy-producing—range"
This goes against the oft-repeated line that 250K's will automatically lower the volume compared to 500K's.
A few interesting quotes from Frank Falbo's article:
1) "Old Gibsons had 250k pots, but their humbuckers were relatively low output, with low DC resistance compared to modern rock and metal humbuckers"
This contradicts Lew saying: "Those Gibson guitars that created the classic blues and rock tones most of us love had 500K pots...not 250K." Who's right?
2) "You can also mix values in a Les Paul-type guitar. For example, you might mellow the bridge with 250k and sharpen the neck with 500k."
Nice to hear a PU expert confirm that it's a viable option.
3) "When Seymour himself uses one (JB), it’s often with 250k pots, playing with his bare fingers. Wired and played this way, the pickup produces a thicker, stronger, warmer tone."
A quote from Jim at Scumback Speakers that Lew posted last week: "I've never heard a 300k pot loaded guitar that sounded as good as a 500k pot loaded guitar (unless it was a Strat)...ever." Seymour obviously has a different opinion on that than Jim and Lew.
4) "Have you ever lowered your tone control to zero and felt like your guitar just got louder? How can that be if you’re taking frequencies away? Because the resonant peak frequency just descended into a more audible—and more energy-producing—range"
This goes against the oft-repeated line that 250K's will automatically lower the volume compared to 500K's.
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Lewguitar
New member
Re: Humbucker with 250k pots?
1. This may not be in reference to humbuckers. There were P90's and other single coils in the 30's and 40's that preceded the P90.
2. Go for it if you feel so inclined
3. I mention the JB often as sounding good with 250k pots, and sounding good in a Super Strat with 250k pots. Both the Jazz and the JB are a little to bright for my tastes with 500k pots.
4. No. That has never happened to me. Ever.
1. This may not be in reference to humbuckers. There were P90's and other single coils in the 30's and 40's that preceded the P90.
2. Go for it if you feel so inclined
3. I mention the JB often as sounding good with 250k pots, and sounding good in a Super Strat with 250k pots. Both the Jazz and the JB are a little to bright for my tastes with 500k pots.
4. No. That has never happened to me. Ever.
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Gibson 1964
New member
Re: Humbucker with 250k pots?
I have seen 500k, 300k, and 75k in Gibsons. (75k is awful IMO. Norlin era bad idea that I don't know anyone who likes it. In some instances it makes a great sounding Norlin sound dead.) I could check my '51 0r 64's resistance sometime. Personally I like 500k in general with humbuckers, and like Lew, turning the tone control down never makes the guitar sound louder. That is one of the stranger sounding things I have heard, because it is absolutely contrary to all my experience.
I have seen 500k, 300k, and 75k in Gibsons. (75k is awful IMO. Norlin era bad idea that I don't know anyone who likes it. In some instances it makes a great sounding Norlin sound dead.) I could check my '51 0r 64's resistance sometime. Personally I like 500k in general with humbuckers, and like Lew, turning the tone control down never makes the guitar sound louder. That is one of the stranger sounding things I have heard, because it is absolutely contrary to all my experience.
blueman335
Mojo's Minions
Re: Humbucker with 250k pots?
Frank didn't say it happens every time, but that it can. Makes sense, and since he knows more about PU's than any of us, I'm inclined to believe him.
How long has Gibson been using 250K/300K pots? And since JB's aren't standard in their guitars, then does that mean that all of those guitars don't sound as 'good' as they would with 500K's? That's many thousands of guitars weren't talking about. I'd think that all of us have heard recordings of those guitars (in stock form) and really liked some of the tones. Could Lew listen to albums and be able to tell which Gibsons had 300K pots and which had all 500K's?
And yes, 75K pots with passive PU's is crazy.
Frank didn't say it happens every time, but that it can. Makes sense, and since he knows more about PU's than any of us, I'm inclined to believe him.
How long has Gibson been using 250K/300K pots? And since JB's aren't standard in their guitars, then does that mean that all of those guitars don't sound as 'good' as they would with 500K's? That's many thousands of guitars weren't talking about. I'd think that all of us have heard recordings of those guitars (in stock form) and really liked some of the tones. Could Lew listen to albums and be able to tell which Gibsons had 300K pots and which had all 500K's?
And yes, 75K pots with passive PU's is crazy.
Gibson 1964
New member
Re: Humbucker with 250k pots?
I don't know. I'd be interested in finding out, largely because what I have found was all over the map.
My 81 Firebrand deluxe has 500k stock, 84 LPC had 4x 75k pots. (Those sold me on swapping out pots being critical if a guitar had an amplified voice that was way darker than the acoustic tone) I haven't checked my 51 or 64. I would make an educated guess the 64 is 500k as the tone clones I have made of it have all been 500k. (It is a fairly fragile guitar so I tend to play soundalikes out. The 99 I had had 300k as did the 2001. (I'd say most of the 90s, 00's I have seen had 300k.) My blueshawk... is an odd enough duck I think it is irrelevant.
Personally, I would generally say I sound better with 500ks. I can't go further than that. I have commented before that somehow my technique seems to eat treble. I tend to mud out easier than most.
Could some tunes have sounded better with a different value? I would respond with a definitive, "perhaps, perhaps not." Mostly it would depend on the player.
It is worded in a rhetorical fashion that makes me go, huh? Simply because I have absolutely not ever heard that. If I were to speculate I would speculate it is peculiarities of individuals hearing.
I don't know. I'd be interested in finding out, largely because what I have found was all over the map.
My 81 Firebrand deluxe has 500k stock, 84 LPC had 4x 75k pots. (Those sold me on swapping out pots being critical if a guitar had an amplified voice that was way darker than the acoustic tone) I haven't checked my 51 or 64. I would make an educated guess the 64 is 500k as the tone clones I have made of it have all been 500k. (It is a fairly fragile guitar so I tend to play soundalikes out. The 99 I had had 300k as did the 2001. (I'd say most of the 90s, 00's I have seen had 300k.) My blueshawk... is an odd enough duck I think it is irrelevant.
I think we can all agree on that. What were they smoking?
Personally, I would generally say I sound better with 500ks. I can't go further than that. I have commented before that somehow my technique seems to eat treble. I tend to mud out easier than most.
Could some tunes have sounded better with a different value? I would respond with a definitive, "perhaps, perhaps not." Mostly it would depend on the player.
