Humbuckers: Overwound, Underwound, Bass, Middle, Treble

gregory

gregory

New member
I keep reading lots of things I either don't understand or could simply be misunderstood regurgitations of something said by an expert or "expert" or simply just parroting of misunderstood regurgitations.

First, let me pose a question:
What do people here think would be the tonality of a bobbin wound until it is completely full of 41AWG PE wire? Let's assume a constant wind that consumes the most amount of wire possible without having to use an abnormal amount of tension. I am intentionally leaving the magnet out of the equation.

I'm particularly interested in the relative amount of bass, middle and treble.

How about 42AWG PE? 43AWG PE? 44AWG PE?

Now do the same with the bobbin 75% full (by diameter).

Again, an orderly winding of wire (not scatterwound) and enough tension to keep it orderly.

I think I know the correct answer, but I'd like to know what people have to say about it.
 
Re: Humbuckers: Overwound, Underwound, Bass, Middle, Treble

assuming everything stays the same other than the size of the wire the #41 would be brighter than #42 which would be brighter than #43 etc... youd get more turns of #42 than #41 so there would be more output as you used smaller wire.

75% of the bobbin would be brighter and lower output than 100% of the bobbin
 
Re: Humbuckers: Overwound, Underwound, Bass, Middle, Treble

More output because of increased inductance. I know that's assumed, but for the sake of the DCR-centric folks... ;)

Relative BMT?

Role of parasitic capacitance?

Role of geometry/ability to capture changes in magnetic field as it relates to frequency?

If my attempt to steer is wrong-headed (I don't believe it is), what is required to capture low frequencies, ignoring magnets, coil location and relative mids and highs?
 
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Re: Humbuckers: Overwound, Underwound, Bass, Middle, Treble

I appreciate posts derived from extensive experience, so long as they're presented objectively (please no "according to my ears posts"). However, I'd prefer answers rooted in sound physics.
 
Re: Humbuckers: Overwound, Underwound, Bass, Middle, Treble

I'd have said you'd likely need more turns of wire as the size decreases in order to maintain the output level, which would lead to a reduction in higher frequencies in the process. From what I can tell, tension would have an effect on lower frequencies, so it would be a consideration for looking into BMT regardless.

I'm new at this, and is purely experience thus far etc :)
 
Re: Humbuckers: Overwound, Underwound, Bass, Middle, Treble

I have a feeling the LF corner frequency is more dependent on how far the coil extends to the outer edge of the bobbin than anything else.
 
Re: Humbuckers: Overwound, Underwound, Bass, Middle, Treble

gregory said:
If my attempt to steer is wrong-headed (I don't believe it is), what is required to capture low frequencies, ignoring magnets, coil location and relative mids and highs?
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I guess it depends on what you mean by the question, are you just trying to wind a coil that resonates at lower frequency? Or are you trying to add bass while keeping the rest of the frequency response static? If you are simply just trying to wind a coil that will resonate at a lower frequency you would either want to push the inductance up relative to its winding capacitance, or its capacitance up relative to its inductance, or likely both. Either will push its resonance frequency lower, but both come with trade offs.
 
Re: Humbuckers: Overwound, Underwound, Bass, Middle, Treble

gregory said:
I appreciate posts derived from extensive experience, so long as they're presented objectively (please no "according to my ears posts"). However, I'd prefer answers rooted in sound physics.
Click to expand...

For answers, you need to post this in a winders forum, not a users forum
 
Re: Humbuckers: Overwound, Underwound, Bass, Middle, Treble

gregory said:
Any recommendations?
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There are plenty around, specifically for guitar purposes. I run one, but that one has more to do with high gain guitar amps, and modern guitar gadgetry. MEF also has a good sub forum dedicated to the craft here's a link to there.

http://music-electronics-forum.com/activity.php

gregory said:
I have a feeling the LF corner frequency is more dependent on how far the coil extends to the outer edge of the bobbin than anything else.
Click to expand...
Both the geometry and the number of winds will have a direct effect on the coils inductance, thus have the potential to push frequency response down.
 
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Re: Humbuckers: Overwound, Underwound, Bass, Middle, Treble

Keep in mind though, that any winder's forums I've checked out can get pretty contentious for some reason. I generally don't hang in those places any more.
 
Re: Humbuckers: Overwound, Underwound, Bass, Middle, Treble

The issue with winding, is that you can do so many different things with the way the wire is laid down on the bobbins. So you can compensate for many artifacts of either the wire or the bobbin size with the way the wire is laid onto the bobbins.

The second point is that as the physical dimensions of the wire change, it is no longer possible to duplicate certain wind parameters. So an 'all things being equal' comparison sometimes (in your case, read always) is just not possible.
So as Joey Voltage has said, it depends on what you are trying to achieve specifically as to what other aspects of the tone will change.
 
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Re: Humbuckers: Overwound, Underwound, Bass, Middle, Treble

Mincer said:
Keep in mind though, that any winder's forums I've checked out can get pretty contentious for some reason. I generally don't hang in those places any more.
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I see this across the board mostly with anything that's M.I. related. Probably because its everything else beside objective, and nobody perceives things exactly the same way. It would be one thing if everything just had to work, but once other senses are involved forget about it. Plus winding can be as much as an art as it is a science, and you know the typical artist stereotype.
 
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Re: Humbuckers: Overwound, Underwound, Bass, Middle, Treble

gregory said:
More output because of increased inductance. I know that's assumed, but for the sake of the DCR-centric folks... ;)

Relative BMT?

Role of parasitic capacitance?

Role of geometry/ability to capture changes in magnetic field as it relates to frequency?

If my attempt to steer is wrong-headed (I don't believe it is), what is required to capture low frequencies, ignoring magnets, coil location and relative mids and highs?
Click to expand...
Most of those questions you have to answer yourself by actually winding p'ups.

The basics of theory you can learn from this book:
https://www.gitarrenelektronik.de/p...ic-guitar-sound-secrets-and-technology-detail

HTH,
 
Re: Humbuckers: Overwound, Underwound, Bass, Middle, Treble

Mincer said:
any winder's forums I've checked out can get pretty contentious for some reason.
Click to expand...
Not as contentious as this very forum when somebody talked about Eddie Van Halen.

Thank God the Eddie fad passed...
 
Re: Humbuckers: Overwound, Underwound, Bass, Middle, Treble

I wind some pickups with 41 awg. Even 40. Mostly neck pickups since you can't get as much wire on the bobbin.

Heavier wire has a brighter top end, and a less prominent midrange. It sounds hollow and scooped.

43 and 44 is mostly used because we are basically stuck with a 50+ year old pickup form factor, and if you want much more than 5,000 turns of wire on a humbucker bobbin you need to move to thinner wire. So we can make pickups with larger bobbins. They wouldn't be drop in replacements, but interesting things could be done!

The thinner gauges have a more pronounced midrange and tighter low end.

Of course no one usually winds 5,000 turns of 44 on a humbucker bobbin, so most of our examples are bobbins with 6,000 and more turns.

At that point you lower the resonant peak of the pickup. And the high end drops off right after that. And the lows get reinforced with more wire.

Things like parasitic capacitance are negligible in pickups as it's so low. The capacitance of your cable to the amp swamps any small capacitance from the pickup.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Re: Humbuckers: Overwound, Underwound, Bass, Middle, Treble

Joey Voltage said:
I see this across the board mostly with anything that's M.I. related. Probably because its everything else beside objective, and nobody perceives things exactly the same way. It would be one thing if everything just had to work, but once other senses are involved forget about it. Plus winding can be as much as an art as it is a science, and you know the typical artist stereotype.
Click to expand...

I don't see it as an 'artist stereotype' as I know a ton of artists and they don't act like that. I see it more like 'I learned this in engineering class, and I have a need to prove everyone wrong' stereotype.
 
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