Hybrid - Gibson - 10K PAF?

[The Usual]

I have played around with a couple of hybrids, and they sound great. One of them was a Custom/Gibson 498T and is was pretty cool, but a little hot for me.

I have recently started using a multimeter and based on the Gibson pickups I have, 490T and 498T, I think a hybrid of the neck and bridge should put me in around the 10K mark, wich a lot of people around here think is the sweet spot.

Any one ever try this? Any thoughts on whether or not this would work? Please don't just respond with "Try it and you'll know". I get that. I just wanted thoughts from those who get the hybrid theory, before I put the work in.

I also have a bridge pup from an 86 SG that's unpotted and is labelled Pat No 2,737,842 on the base plate. THis one measures 7.4K so it may work with a 498 hybrid also.

I know that resistance does not mean everything, or maybe anything with pickups. Otherwise you could just add a resistor to a 7K paf and make it a CC, but maybe this could be a solution to what to do with stock Gibson pups?

 

[hamerfan]

Re: Hybrid - Gibson - 10K PAF?

>>I also have a bridge pup from an 86 SG that's unpotted and is labelled Pat No 2,737,842 on the base plate. THis one measures 7.4K so it may work with a 498 hybrid also.<<
Don't hack this up: its a recent Shaw Pickup, it should bring a decent price on fleabay. If its older than that it could also be a T-Top (those bobbins miss a little square hole and have T shaped mark - they were produced up to 1979). A T-Top even brings more.

 

[The Usual]

Re: Hybrid - Gibson - 10K PAF?

Good point. I looked it up when I bought it and it's not a T top, but very close after those. I likely will use the 490R or whatever the normal Gibson neck pickup is, since they measure the same.

A note about the Shaws; the neck and bridge measure the same. A little thin for the bridge of an SG, but on the neck, by FAR the best neck pup I've ever heard.

 

[Fusion1]

Re: Hybrid - Gibson - 10K PAF?

What is this Shaw pickup? I have a 1986 Gibson SG Standard. I still have both Gibson pickups but they haven't been used since 1986 they sucked so bad. Why would these be considered a SHAW pickup (whatever that is)? ASll I know is it is a muddy as hell 490R and a craptastic 498T bridge. I haven't missed them since.

 

[The Usual]

Re: Hybrid - Gibson - 10K PAF?

I don't know what the pickup is called. I am going with Shaw because that's what I've heard it called. All I know is the bridge one is too thin and weak, but the neck is fantastic in my SG. They were stock and unpotted. In this guitar, I'd take the neck over any Duncan I've played, and I've played a lot. Of course, if you dropped it in something else, it may sound like ass.

 

[The Usual]

Re: Hybrid - Gibson - 10K PAF?

Maybe I should ask this way. Does anyone know what guage wire Gibson uses on their 400 and 498?

 

[Fusion1]

Re: Hybrid - Gibson - 10K PAF?

I'm just curious how 2 people have heard just a run of the mill mid 80's Gibson pickups being some sought after holy grail type pickup. I have never heard of SHAW anything. Are you both referring to Tommy Shaw they guy from Dam n Yankees/Styx? He was never that big of a name to have his own signature pickups or even guitar for that matter. Confused as from what the OP is describing, but these are just the less than stellar mediocre 490r / 498t combo that there is nothing special about.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: Hybrid - Gibson - 10K PAF?

Shaw is Tim Shaw who worked at Gibson and now works for Fender. He was part of the era where Gibson made an effort to return to actual P.A.F. specs. Only they wouldn't allow him to buy the exact same parts due to the cost! So what he essentially made was a pickup that was as close to the old P.A.F. specs as you could possibly get but with some less expensive materials (different wire) and a shorter magnet so that it was easier to build.

I have always heard that they are great, but not great from a "boutique" standpoint, and Tim Shaw never made any of them. He was just the guy in charge at that point in time. He's pretty humble about the whole thing, actually. The point is, if they sound good to you, keep them and use them. They may even sound better to a lot of people than Gibson's current crop of pickups. So they are not magical, but they are very good. They are also not vintage correct either, but again, it depends on whether you value those kinds of things.

As for the 10k P.A.F. made from Gibson 49x coils, the only pickups wound with PAF wire are the ones in the 8k range. So you won't have a 10k P.A.F. instead you'll have more like a 59/Custom hybrid, but really it's like an underwound 59 and underwound JB. Good luck, I don't think it will be a holy grail. I would actually presume it to be a little like the Dimarzio Steve's Special.

 

[Christopher Caruana]

Re: Hybrid - Gibson - 10K PAF?

I have played around with a couple of hybrids, and they sound great. One of them was a Custom/Gibson 498T and is was pretty cool, but a little hot for me.

I have recently started using a multimeter and based on the Gibson pickups I have, 490T and 498T, I think a hybrid of the neck and bridge should put me in around the 10K mark, wich a lot of people around here think is the sweet spot.

Any one ever try this? Any thoughts on whether or not this would work? Please don't just respond with "Try it and you'll know". I get that. I just wanted thoughts from those who get the hybrid theory, before I put the work in.

I also have a bridge pup from an 86 SG that's unpotted and is labelled Pat No 2,737,842 on the base plate. THis one measures 7.4K so it may work with a 498 hybrid also.

I know that resistance does not mean everything, or maybe anything with pickups. Otherwise you could just add a resistor to a 7K paf and make it a CC, but maybe this could be a solution to what to do with stock Gibson pups?

just buy a gibson '57 classic plus humbucker. its an over wound "hot" P.A.F. reads about 10K

 

[PoorMan]

Re: Hybrid - Gibson - 10K PAF?

Maybe I should ask this way. Does anyone know what guage wire Gibson uses on their 400 and 498?

I've never measured, but based on the coil size and dc resistance of the 498s I've seen, it's probably 43 AWG.

 

[The Usual]

Re: Hybrid - Gibson - 10K PAF?

Thanks for all of the help folks. So I measured them again. If I put a pup that's around 13.5 and one that's around 7.5 together, won't I get around 10.5k give or take, depending on the mag used?

As for it being a PAF, I still don't get how we discern all HBs from PAFs. Like saying a flood light isn't a real light bulb to me, but maybe I'm missing something. Wasn't the patent about the humbucking aspect?

I have used the Custom/59 hybrid and I do think it is one of the best pups I've played. I'm assuming that it measures close to what a Gibson 49x hybrid would, but I think the theory behind it is having different wire, and not just mismatching based on less/more winds. I was hoping someone knew how the Gibsons were made to save me wasting time hacking away.

I guess I'll have to give it a shot and report back. It's kind of funny how we know so much about the Duncans, and very little about the Gibsons we rip out of our guitars and replace, except that they all suck! I'm kidding. I know a lot of people here realize that in some cases, Gibsons can fit just fine.

 

[Christopher Caruana]

Re: Hybrid - Gibson - 10K PAF?

Thanks for all of the help folks. So I measured them again. If I put a pup that's around 13.5 and one that's around 7.5 together, won't I get around 10.5k give or take, depending on the mag used?

As for it being a PAF, I still don't get how we discern all HBs from PAFs. Like saying a flood light isn't a real light bulb to me, but maybe I'm missing something. Wasn't the patent about the humbucking aspect?

I have used the Custom/59 hybrid and I do think it is one of the best pups I've played. I'm assuming that it measures close to what a Gibson 49x hybrid would, but I think the theory behind it is having different wire, and not just mismatching based on less/more winds. I was hoping someone knew how the Gibsons were made to save me wasting time hacking away.

I guess I'll have to give it a shot and report back. It's kind of funny how we know so much about the Duncans, and very little about the Gibsons we rip out of our guitars and replace, except that they all suck! I'm kidding. I know a lot of people here realize that in some cases, Gibsons can fit just fine.

well, with the old P.A.F.'s they were all hand made and used different wire and such then we do today. another thing that made them special was that unlike today where they wire a pickup to a surtain output level and give it somany turns. the p.a.f.'s were only wound till they were full

 

[The Usual]

Re: Hybrid - Gibson - 10K PAF?

So really, there is no PAF resistance standard. Even better! I wonder if there were any PAFs that measured something really high like over 14K. That would be funny to see.


So no one knows what guage wire Gibson uses on the 400 series, or if it's different from one to the next? That sucks. Maybe I should start another thread with that question.

 

[Christopher Caruana]

Re: Hybrid - Gibson - 10K PAF?

So really, there is no PAF resistance standard. Even better! I wonder if there were any PAFs that measured something really high like over 14K. That would be funny to see.


So no one knows what guage wire Gibson uses on the 400 series, or if it's different from one to the next? That sucks. Maybe I should start another thread with that question.

ya there was no standard "P.A.F. output level" but since the pickups were only wound till full there probably ranged from 7-10 about and thats what made them so special. they also used enamel coated wire and nickel plated pole pieces and such. gibson most likely used (I think) 42 guage wire. the gibson reissues are perfact replicas of the p.a.f.'s. if your looking for vintage tone but with a tad more out put, go with the '57 classic plus or the busrtbucker pro's. they are p.a.f.'s that are just a tad overwound.

 

[jeremy]

Re: Hybrid - Gibson - 10K PAF?

gibson humbuckers from '56 to '61 used a variety of 2.5" alnico magnets, 42 awg PE copper wire, were from 7.5k to 9k or so, some with mismatched coils.
that is what is referred to as "p.a.f." but there is alot of variation with those specs, some good, some great, others not so great.

any deviation from that and it isnt a "paf" style pup. if you use poly wire, it isnt a paf. if you use #43 pe wire, it isnt a paf.

by 1965 or so gibson pups were much more consistant at around 7.5k of 42 poly wire and 2.25" alnico 5 magnets. i think these can be fantastic neck pups, but usually not great bridge pups

 

[PoorMan]

Re: Hybrid - Gibson - 10K PAF?

One could even argue using Modern 42 PE doesn't make a PAF. Because modern PE uses a different formula (lacking benzene). Although I heard AWC might still be using benzene.

Dave Stephens (Stephens Designs Pickups) convincingly (IMO) argues the alloys are all wrong these days too.

Myth Buster...PAFs weren't hand wound. They were machine wound on a Leesona machine (the very same one Seymour Duncan owns and uses).

 

[The Usual]

Re: Hybrid - Gibson - 10K PAF?

I feel like I am hijacking my own thread here, but was the patent that was being applied for, about the parts that made up the pickup, or the humbucking technology?

 

[PoorMan]

Re: Hybrid - Gibson - 10K PAF?

I feel like I am hijacking my own thread here, but was the patent that was being applied for, about the parts that made up the pickup, or the humbucking technology?

The design.

 

[jeremy]

Re: Hybrid - Gibson - 10K PAF?

So really, there is no PAF resistance standard. Even better! I wonder if there were any PAFs that measured something really high like over 14K. That would be funny to see.

nope. there is no way to get 7k worth of 42 pe on a bucker bobbin

So no one knows what guage wire Gibson uses on the 400 series, or if it's different from one to the next? That sucks. Maybe I should start another thread with that question.

490 - #42
496 - #42
498 - #43

the 500T im not sure but it is either #43 or #44

 

[Christopher Caruana]

Re: Hybrid - Gibson - 10K PAF?

the pickups are called the "p.a.f.'s" because when they were made, gibson did not want anyone to copy the pickups. So instead of putting a serial number on the back, they just put the "patent applied for" sticker on there to throw off people/companies trying to get information based form a serial number patent. Even when gibson started putting serial numbers on the pack of their pickups, sometimes they would put a bridge serial number on a neck pickup as well as another bridge pup to continue to try to throw off copiers. It's all in the book i have called "50 years of the gibson les paul."