Hypocrisy? What say you?

[misterwhizzy]

Since the early days of Bugera's arrival on the scene, I've done nothing but badmouth the way they steal proprietary amp technology, sell copies for next to nothing and profit off someone else's design work while doing none of it for themselves.

And last night, I went searching for Klone kits. I've never played one, and I'm not even sure it's something I want. But I know it IS something I want to try. And I found this. So basically, someone reverse engineered the Centaur, built a PCB, and is selling it for me to solder and enjoy at a MUCH cheaper price.

Still thinking it would be a lot of fun and a pretty decent pedal, but I have to admit I should be against the idea.

What do you think? Go for it? Take the moral high ground? Find some soul but sell my soul?

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: Hypocrisy? What say you?

Hmm. What would kramersteen say? :scratchch

 

[SlyFoxx]

Re: Hypocrisy? What say you?

Marshall took a basic Fender design, slapped it together with roughly equivalent parts available in England ran it though a closed cab and ...a "new" amp was born. Not sure how much proprietary tech can be happening under the hood of a basic guitar amp. I doubt you'll be offering the big guys real competition any time soon, right?

 

[Lazarus1140]

Re: Hypocrisy? What say you?

What is the status of the patent on the original? There are many supposed Klon clones being produced and sold these days..

 

[Demanic]

Re: Hypocrisy? What say you?

Interesting. I just saved that site to my "favorites". I've been looking for a new project. Maybe it'll be this box.

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: Hypocrisy? What say you?

The Roland AG-10 Funny Cat recreation could be interesting but only to funny cats.

 

[Kamanda~SD]

Re: Hypocrisy? What say you?

Post your rig...I'd like to see how much of your stuff is exactly what you despise...or hell, what car you drive while were at it.

'The way she goes...especially in the audio world. However, I see what you mean as companies like Bugera (and their owner Behringer who has been doing this to Mackie stuff since day 1) actually making a profiting business over this vs DIY hobbyists (although their making a business out of it too so...). Personally I say go for it, why not learn and have some fun while your at it.

Plus, it's a Klon clone...their price is a ****ing joke to begin with

 

[devastone]

Re: Hypocrisy? What say you?

GGG has one too - http://store.generalguitargadgets.com/kits/kits-distortion/kc-complete-kit.html

Or, for about the same price you can buy an EHX Soul Food which is a Klon clone.

 

[GilmourD]

Re: Hypocrisy? What say you?

Since the early days of Bugera's arrival on the scene, I've done nothing but badmouth the way they steal proprietary amp technology, sell copies for next to nothing and profit off someone else's design work while doing none of it for themselves.

And last night, I went searching for Klone kits. I've never played one, and I'm not even sure it's something I want. But I know it IS something I want to try. And I found this. So basically, someone reverse engineered the Centaur, built a PCB, and is selling it for me to solder and enjoy at a MUCH cheaper price.

Still thinking it would be a lot of fun and a pretty decent pedal, but I have to admit I should be against the idea.

What do you think? Go for it? Take the moral high ground? Find some soul but sell my soul?

What amps have proprietary technology that Bugera stole?

Early Fender amps were lifted straight out of the RCA technical manuals.

The Marshall JTM45 was a direct lift of the '59 Fender Bassman. In fact, the first few JTM45s used 5881 tubes until they switched to KT66 tubes.

The Soldano SLO is basically a modified JCM800.

The 5150/6505 is basically a hot-rodded SLO.

Early Boogies were based on Fender Blackface/Silverface designs.


Did you know that you can't trademark, copyright, or patent a circuit? You can patent new process techniques and materials, but not the actual circuit path. The closest you can come is copywriting a circuitboard design.

So, this is copywritable:

This is not:

 

[aleclee]

Re: Hypocrisy? What say you?

What is the status of the patent on the original?

That's kind of the rub on the whole amp/pedal knock-off thing: there is pretty much no IP protection (patent or copyright) for a circuit.

Personally, I despise it when companies knock off other companies' developments whether it's legal or not. OTOH, if the original is no longer for sale, my attitude is somewhat more . . . flexible. At that point, even if I buy the real deal, the money's not going to those who invented the product.

 

[misterwhizzy]

Re: Hypocrisy? What say you?

I have no problems with mods leading to a new product. I think it was knowledge and elbow grease that developed something new. He understood what he wanted to change, and he did it. A direct copy is much harder to explain. Does the Klon Centaur fall under the "unavailable" banner? I think it just might.

 

[PFDarkside]

Re: Hypocrisy? What say you?

I have no problems with mods leading to a new product. I think it was knowledge and elbow grease that developed something new. He understood what he wanted to change, and he did it. A direct copy is much harder to explain. Does the Klon Centaur fall under the "unavailable" banner? I think it just might.

Nope.

Bill Finnegan's Klon

Bill Finnegan's officially licensed replica

 

[Artie]

Re: Hypocrisy? What say you?

GGG has one too - http://store.generalguitargadgets.com/kits/kits-distortion/kc-complete-kit.html

Or, for about the same price you can buy an EHX Soul Food which is a Klon clone.

Built the former. Have the latter. I'll have to do a shoot-out as soon as I get the Klon installed in an enclosure.

 

[crusty philtrum]

Re: Hypocrisy? What say you?

Somewhere in the world, children will starve, and it will be your fault.

Teach two children to fish and your conscience will be clear.

 

[GoldenVulture]

Re: Hypocrisy? What say you?

What amps have proprietary technology that Bugera stole?

Early Fender amps were lifted straight out of the RCA technical manuals.

The Marshall JTM45 was a direct lift of the '59 Fender Bassman. In fact, the first few JTM45s used 5881 tubes until they switched to KT66 tubes.

The Soldano SLO is basically a modified JCM800.

The 5150/6505 is basically a hot-rodded SLO.

Early Boogies were based on Fender Blackface/Silverface designs.


Did you know that you can't trademark, copyright, or patent a circuit? You can patent new process techniques and materials, but not the actual circuit path. The closest you can come is copywriting a circuitboard design.

So, this is copywritable:

This is not:

What's this in the corner of this Fender schematic.

 

[El Dunco]

Re: Hypocrisy? What say you?

I just don't like Bugera because I don't think they sound good. All the amps we consider classic now borrowed or even outright copied other designs so it isn't a factor for me. I don't care how it got made, just how it sounds.

 

[GilmourD]

Re: Hypocrisy? What say you?

What's this in the corner of this Fender schematic.

The Tone Master contains an odd switching setup, IIRC, and also hasn't been copied to my knowledge.

Look at all the amps Bugera has copied. They're mostly in the realm of "Duh, everybody uses that circuit".

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

[GoldenVulture]

Re: Hypocrisy? What say you?

The Tone Master contains an odd switching setup, IIRC, and also hasn't been copied to my knowledge.

Look at all the amps Bugera has copied. They're mostly in the realm of "Duh, everybody uses that circuit".

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

I was refering to the " proprietary " section that infers a copyright to the schematic.

I used to see many things like this on schematics and servicing info for TV's VCR's and other devices. Most Service Manuals are covered by a proprietary/copyright notice.

 

[Dave Locher]

Re: Hypocrisy? What say you?

My view:
commercial companies that make money stealing current designs from other companies = not good
commercial companies that make money stealing designs no longer in production = ok
individuals who are smart enough and willing enough to build from scratch an existing design = ok
individuals or companies that make money acting as conduits for those individuals = gray zone

Cloning anything that is not currently in production = totally fine
Cloning anything that one can't afford = okay
Cloning anything at all for one's own personal use = okay
Cloning anything to resell it for a profit = not okay

Build your Klone and enjoy it. Just don't start building them to sell.

 

[GilmourD]

Re: Hypocrisy? What say you?

I was refering to the " proprietary " section that infers a copyright to the schematic.

I used to see many things like this on schematics and servicing info for TV's VCR's and other devices. Most Service Manuals are covered by a proprietary/copyright notice.

More of a scare tactic. There's only so many ways to build a tube amp that actually functions, so it really becomes a matter of just using different component values (like a 2.7K ohm cathode resistor on a 12AX7 triode will cause it to have more gain than an 820 ohm resistor in the same spot).

The actual electrical circuit, unless it relies on a proprietary material, is not copywritable. The circuitboard layout art can be, though.

What Bugera does is lazy but not illegal or unethical. They lay out their own circuitboards and use off-the-shelf parts, so... [shrug]