I had a realization today regarding bridge pickups and output levels

[Rex_Rocker]

I've always known it, really, but I hadn't really connected the dots, and I didn't know it would make that big of a difference.

You know how the same pickup in the neck position is always louder than in the bridge position? Makes sense. Strings vibrate more widely there. They produce more voltage. Cool. Not rocket science.

I've always known I tend not to like the tone of bridge pickups that are really far away from the bridge (like on some Jacksons). They tend to sound duller, smoother, and take on quasi-neck pickup characteristics. You know I'm pretty radical when it comes to pickup tastes. I like my bridge pickups bridge-y and my neck pickups neck-y.

Well... today I realized that the further away from the bridge you have the bridge pickup also has a radical effect on output. The PG+ is not a hot pickup by any means. Yet, it came out surprisingly loud when I checked a DI recorded with my conflictive new Strat, LOL. Also, the guitar sounds slightly dark when amplified, and I attributed that at first to the 250K knob. But the PG is a 8.5-ish K pickup with an A5 magnet too on a zingy-sounding guitar. I certainly didn't expect it to be this smooth/dark.

Also, my old Epi 1959 had the same pickup as the Gibson at some point, Fishman Fluence Classic Open Cores. The guitar itself is quieter acoustically. Yet the Epi recorded very slightly hotter DI's. Not "better-sounding", mind you. But hotter for sure. And you know how I always complain about Epis not having the bridge pickup on the same position relative to the bridge as Gibsons.

IME, that makes a whole more of a difference in the amplified tone that tonewood itself to the point where the same bridge pickup doesn't sound even remotely like itself on a guitar with similar specs but that has the bridge pickup mounted way back than another both output and EQ-wise.

So it's kind of a double-edged sword for me. On one side, I like my bridge pickups nice and bitey. On the other, I also like to squeeze every drop of output I can out of my pickups.

So... what are you guys' thoughts?

 

[beaubrummels]

There's more to tone than pickup and its position along the strings. I've found with single bridge pickup guitars I can still get a neck pickup tone by playing up near the neck.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

There's more to tone than pickup and its position along the strings. I've found with single bridge pickup guitars I can still get a neck pickup tone by playing up near the neck.

That too. Agreed. I'm sure scale lenght plays a part on how you pick and, most importantly, where you're picking in relation to the bridge.

So in escence, a Les Paul will sound different than a Strat even with the same pickups not just because of scale lenght, pickup placement relative to the bridge/neck, and difference in woods and construction, but because you play them differently as well even if you don't do it consciously.

In that sense, I'm actually starting to predict my Strat will sound fatter and louder than my Les Paul if I put the same pickups on both when amplified, surprisingly.

 

[Clint 55]

Absolutely distance from the bridge affects the tone immensely. 1 inch from the bridge is aggressive. 1 1/4 inches is still totally bridge-y. 1 1/2 inches already starts to get way warmer. By 2 inches, it about loses the bridge characteristics.

Slanted hums have a huge effect because the bass side is way farther from the bridge and way warmer. I think it only sounds good with vintage output. With high output, it's almost too bassy.

If you want more output out of your bridge hums, use double thick magnets.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Absolutely distance from the bridge affects the tone immensely. 1 inch from the bridge is aggressive. 1 1/4 inches is still totally bridge-y. 1 1/2 inches already starts to get way warmer. By 2 inches, it about loses the bridge characteristics.

Slanted hums have a huge effect because the bass side is way farther from the bridge and way warmer. I think it only sounds good with vintage output. With high output, it's almost too bassy.

If you want more output out of your bridge hums, use double thick magnets.

Kinda hard to get double thick triple ceramic magnet setup that is already double thick like the one on the 500T, LOL.

 

[Clint 55]

You gotta build em out of regular thickness spacer magnets. Have the pup packed full of 3 double thick alnicos. Would be fat. And not suck like ceramic. I could make em for people. I doubt anyone wants to tho.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Nah, I'm fine with my 500T, haha.

I'm starting to think I don't need something that matches the output of the 500T for my Strat like I asked for in the other thread, though.

I'm going to try the Super 2 in there this weekend. But I suspect I might even have to go for something milder like the levels of a JB or Custom, even.

 

[gimmieinfo]

I've always looked at the pickup's relation to the bridge and when i first started looking at the IBG line i noticed that the Epi SG special's bridge p/u was further back than the gibson SG special. But if you look at the actual vintage ones they are spaced like the Epi, not the Gibson ! I'd be afraid to buy the gibson which has the p90 nearly touching the wraparound bridge. Rolling down the bridge to clean up would likely yield pure tin.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

I've always looked at the pickup's relation to the bridge and when i first started looking at the IBG line i noticed that the Epi SG special's bridge p/u was further back than the gibson SG special. But if you look at the actual vintage ones they are spaced like the Epi, not the Gibson ! I'd be afraid to buy the gibson which has the p90 nearly touching the wraparound bridge. Rolling down the bridge to clean up would likely yield pure tin.

I don't share in the need for good cleans from a bridge pickup, personally. I mean, it's cool to have it if it's there. But at the same, 99% of the time, I'm sure I'll like the neck or middle position clean more no matter how good the bridge position sounds clean (for being the bridge position).

JMO.

 

[freefrog]

Well... today I realized that the further away from the bridge you have the bridge pickup also has a radical effect on output.
[...]
So... what are you guys' thoughts?

My thoughts are...

1-that nothing replaces personal experiment when it comes to guitars,

2-that yes, the farther a pickup is from the bridge, the louder it should be if set at the same height - but not necessarily with some guitars whose acoustic resonances has dead spots, of course,

3-that it also affects comb filtering as illustrated by the good ol' Tilman applet (where pickups dimensions and location can be set virtually under the screen): https://till.com/articles/PickupResponseDemo/

4-that it's the main reason IME why 24 frets guitars sound better with hotter PU's in neck position (closer to the bridge and therefore weaker with more treble and therefore to spec accordingly),

5-that I've more than once "relocated" bridge pickups relatively to the bridge and have even experimental screenshots about that but won't lose our time with this because of point 1,

6-that all this explains why one of my friends, an ol' pro muzo, is always impressed by the POWER of his bridge T-Top (7.8k) in a SG while he has a theoretically hotter Duncan Custom in his main Vigier guitar - the mentioned SG being a model from the early 70's, whose bridge PU was farther from the bridge than previously...

7-that I've said my piece FWIW.

 

[gimmieinfo]

I don't share in the need for good cleans from a bridge pickup, personally. I mean, it's cool to have it if it's there. But at the same, 99% of the time, I'm sure I'll like the neck or middle position clean more no matter how good the bridge position sounds clean (for being the bridge position).

JMO.

Well, i don't either. I use the neck of middle for very clean tones. But what i mean is using the volume pot to get cleanER. Say going from typical 70s distortion like Bad Company to 60s kinda edge of distortion stuff. There are a ton of classic rock tunes that use a slightly crunchy bridge pickup tone, and if it's that close to the bridge it's not gonna have any body to it unless you use it only with a healthy degree of OD. Then u probably also have to boost the amps low end and end up with a muddy neck pickup.

 

[eclecticsynergy]

IME placement makes even more difference with bridge pickups than it does with necks.
Perhaps because a small change constitutes a larger percentage of the pickup's distance to the bridge?
Just a theory; certainly a difference is audible in both cases.

More than forty years ago I moved the 59 bridge in one of my Floydcasters a mere quarter inch farther from the saddles.
I was amazed at how much difference a couple of millimeters made to its tone and character.
Changed the whole personality actually. Fuller, a bit smoother, and yes - noticeably hotter.

Don't have a current pic (still have the guitar, but it's disassembled) so here's one from the old days.
At the time it had the 59B, a QuarterPound Strat in the middle, and an old T-top at the neck.
You can see the gap where the edge of the bridge hum used to be - it looks large because it's in shadow but actually it's only ¼".
That small move made a big difference.

 

[eclecticsynergy]

EDIT: Tried to edit the above post but couldn't because it contains a pic.
Along the left edge of the humbucker you can see the old mounting hole showing how little it was moved.

 

[Inflames626]

Glancing over the thread--some thoughts.

1) I never considered Jackson bridge pickups to be that far forward. I thought on 25.5" FR guitars pretty much everything was standardized along a particular scale length.

2) A bright clean from a bridge pickup can be very useful if your neck pickup is very warm.

3) Far more important than pickup position on guitar for me is hand position along a bass guitar string. Whether you pick/pluck near the front or back pickup makes a huge difference in tone. I wish guitar had this much variation (but then one would have to be much more careful with right hand technique). For me, pickup position on bass is far more important, and I like how Leo Fender laid out things much more than reverse Ps and slants that came later for multi scales (I've listened to YouTube clips...I like treble strings to sound brighter and low strings to sound warmer on the slant--a reverse slant fights against this).

4) Every variable change affects other variables. Do I wish my more Gibson based guitars had 24 frets? Yes. Do I think there is a tonal difference with 22 even on a 25.5" scale length? Yes. Is it a huge difference? No. Will I unconsciously select a pickup that will compensate for it? Yes. Will it bother me? No. Are there other issues I could obsessively fret over like poly vs. nitro paint thickness and how that affects tone? Yes. Will it bother me? No.

I find for most production guitars you have to decide on what's important to you. I like Floyded Explorer shapes. Those aren't super common. Most of those designs will have some sort of compromise I don't like about them in other areas (say 24.75" scale length or 22 fret necks).

Occasionally, like in cars, you can go up a trim level and get what you want, but other times you have to go up a whole model to get what you're looking for, only to get a bunch of extra stuff you aren't willing to pay for.

Custom shop is always an option but I feel it's throwing money at diminishing returns.

 

[orpheo]

So in escence, a Les Paul will sound different than a Strat
.

you sure?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdeqqfTW3_Q

I tried to hear it. I can't identify the guitar. Can you?

 

[Rex_Rocker]

1) I never considered Jackson bridge pickups to be that far forward. I thought on 25.5" FR guitars pretty much everything was standardized along a particular scale length.

Not all of them. At least, it's not IN YOUR FACE in all of them. It was mostly the 2000's Japanese ones, which were well built at the time.

Does that bridge pickup/bridge placement not look off to you?

 

[Rex_Rocker]

you sure?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdeqqfTW3_Q

I tried to hear it. I can't identify the guitar. Can you?

I was going to check that out yesterday. I will check it out later today!

Glen some pretty radical views. He has good points for the most part. It's just his constant screaming like everyone is a dumbass that makes it hard for me to relate.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

IME placement makes even more difference with bridge pickups than it does with necks.
Perhaps because a small change constitutes a larger percentage of the pickup's distance to the bridge?
Just a theory; certainly a difference is audible in both cases.

More than forty years ago I moved the 59 bridge in one of my Floydcasters a mere quarter inch farther from the saddles.
I was amazed at how much difference a couple of millimeters made to its tone and character.
Changed the whole personality actually. Fuller, a bit smoother, and yes - noticeably hotter.

Don't have a current pic (still have the guitar, but it's disassembled) so here's one from the old days.
At the time it had the 59B, a QuarterPound Strat in the middle, and an old T-top at the neck.
You can see the gap where the edge of the bridge hum used to be - it looks large because it's in shadow but actually it's only ¼".
That small move made a big difference.

Was that an aftermarket pickguard? I'm trying to find an HXX pickguard for mine where the bridge pickup is right against the bridge.

 

[marcello252]

you sure?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdeqqfTW3_Q

I tried to hear it. I can't identify the guitar. Can you?

I bet almost nobody could really identify a pickup / guitar comb from a youtube video, well, yes, you can say it's a single coil or a humbucker if you are trained (here we're all trained more or less) but these kind of videos always overloook the fundamental thing in playing guitar which is the FEELING we have playing a determinate combo, that is the thing really changing and you feel it wih your ears, your fingers, the air moving you, all these infos are completely lost in a video.
And that's the main reason why I don't trust YT in understanding how a thing will sound, unless it is for a very general view.

 

[Mincer]

I don't trust YouTube comparisons outside of very general things. Too many things can happen in post production, and the content creator can steer you to one opinion over the other.