I sure am glad that David Gilmour, Alex Lifeson, EVH, The Edge, Billy Gibbons...

Re: I sure am glad that David Gilmour, Alex Lifeson, EVH, The Edge, Billy Gibbons...

reading this stuff is funny...

as much as that flanger on VHI reached people, we can either choose to re-create that sound in our guitar playing lives or search for a sound that could impact someone else the same way.

There are *great* players that use effects and don't. John McLaughlin and Allan Holdsworth use lots of effects, but I bet they play pretty well if use them or not. Using them isn't a replacement or a cover-up to being a bad player. For true 'signature sounds' though (your own, not someone elses), you have to go past what has been done a million times before, not only use effects in new ways, but your note choices and composition and technique has to be on par with the time spent selecting a sound. I don't see it as any different as practicing guitar- you should spend time on *all* of it.

Amps are effects (otherwise we'd be using PA heads), so are pickup choices. So are electric guitars.

In the end, when analying all this as a whole, could someone pick us out of a group of other guitarists when we play? If not, then our work isn't done.
 
Re: I sure am glad that David Gilmour, Alex Lifeson, EVH, The Edge, Billy Gibbons...

Mincer said:
reading this stuff is funny...

Amps are effects (otherwise we'd be using PA heads), so are pickup choices. So are electric guitars.
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Yup. I have seen a centuries old illustration of a riot on the streets of Spain between two groups...The finger pickers, and the pick users! I wish I could find it, but this was before the internet.

Hmmm. Should anyone play steel strings?
 
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Re: I sure am glad that David Gilmour, Alex Lifeson, EVH, The Edge, Billy Gibbons...

I'm just curious since I'm a product of the 80's. Who is the standard reference for bad 80's tone? I've previously stated, for the record, that now when I hear Twisted Sister, I hear what I'd call terrible tone. However, back in the day I thought they rocked.

But as I think of the 80's and guitar that I remember, most of it sounds good to me. I think of The Cars, The Fixx, Judas Priest, Scorpions, Def Leppard, Duran Duran, Nick Lowe, Elvis Costello, Yes, Asia, Clapton's best tones didn't happen in the 80's, Ratt, Dokken, Dan Huff, .38 Special, Molly Hatchet, AC/DC, Bon Jovi, Dire Straits and Mark Knopfler, Night Ranger, Metallica, Pat Benatar (her husband is a great player but didn't have great tone, but still not terrible)...most of the 80's stuff that I can recall sounded good to me. George Lynch with Dokken didn't have great tone but his chops were good enough that he more than made up for it. I like Randy's Rhode's tone with Ozzy, I liked Jake's tone with Ozzy.

Who is the 80's poster child for bad tone because of the poor use of effects? I know that some guys would put RR on that list. Who else? Kenny Loggin's tone wasn't the greatest. Loverboy: not great tone, but not quite terrible.

EDIT: What have I done? I've admitted that I like most 80's guitar tones. Now, everyone will think I'm crazy. :lmao:
 
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Re: I sure am glad that David Gilmour, Alex Lifeson, EVH, The Edge, Billy Gibbons...

I think one of the things that made the 80's in my opinion so bad was the recording. All of the new digital equipment and tools they used back then were crap, but it was a new sound. The sound of those records were just terrible, and who can forget the keytar! the drums sounded awful, and everything just got blown out of proportion. the producers in those days made really great artists sound bad. there were exceptions, but for the most part i would like to erase a lot of the stuff from the 80's from my mind.
 
Re: I sure am glad that David Gilmour, Alex Lifeson, EVH, The Edge, Billy Gibbons...

Everyone keeps rippin' on my generation's music...I won't take it personally. Really, I won't. It's ok. I'm ok.

People try to put us down
Talkin' 'bout my generation.
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Re: I sure am glad that David Gilmour, Alex Lifeson, EVH, The Edge, Billy Gibbons...

Guitar Toad said:
I'm just curious since I'm a product of the 80's. Who is the standard reference for bad 80's tone? I've previously stated, for the record, that now when I hear Twisted Sister, I hear what I'd call terrible tone. However, back in the day I thought they rocked.

But as I think of the 80's and guitar that I remember, most of it sounds good to me. I think of The Cars, The Fixx, Judas Priest, Scorpions, Def Leppard, Duran Duran, Nick Lowe, Elvis Costello, Yes, Asia, Clapton's best tones didn't happen in the 80's, Ratt, Dokken, Dan Huff, .38 Special, Molly Hatchet, AC/DC, Bon Jovi, Dire Straits and Mark Knopfler, Night Ranger, Metallica, Pat Benatar (her husband is a great player but didn't have great tone, but still not terrible)...most of the 80's stuff that I can recall sounded good to me. George Lynch with Dokken didn't have great tone but his chops were good enough that he more than made up for it. I like Randy's Rhode's tone with Ozzy, I liked Jake's tone with Ozzy.

Who is the 80's poster child for bad tone because of the poor use of effects? I know that some guys would put RR on that list. Who else? Kenny Loggin's tone wasn't the greatest. Loverboy: not great tone, but not quite terrible.
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I don't think its that hair metal had "bad tone", as much as it was that everyone sounded very similar in that genre by the late 80's. By 1988 or so I remember that a lot of the bands were playing racks with ADA MP-1's and using a ton of gain. There also wasn't very much dynamics in the tone....very compressed and mosquito like at its worst.

I believe most of the 80's hair metal guys were trying to cop the early VH tone and was using way too much gain. Eddie had a real big tone and not as overdriven as most people are led to believe.

Use what you want and don't worry about whether it is fashionable or not....it's your tone and the only ears that you really need to please, are your own.
 
Re: I sure am glad that David Gilmour, Alex Lifeson, EVH, The Edge, Billy Gibbons...

Off Topic: The neverending snare drum WHapppp Whapppp Whapppp of '80's "metal" music makes me sick.
 
Re: I sure am glad that David Gilmour, Alex Lifeson, EVH, The Edge, Billy Gibbons...

bungalowbill said:
I don't think its that hair metal had "bad tone", as much as it was that everyone sounded very similar in that genre by the late 80's. By 1988 or so I remember that a lot of the bands were playing racks with ADA MP-1's and using a ton of gain. There also wasn't very much dynamics in the tone....very compressed and mosquito like at its worst.
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Twas ever thus...

Do that many guitar players have a unique tone today? I don't really hear that many tones that inspire me today. There are some great players with great tones, but there are also so many SRV clones, scooped metal tones, bubblegum punk tones, etc that all sound the same to me. I agree that effects should be used to create.

As for using effects -- other artists don't limit themselves like guitar purists do. Can you imagine a painter saying "I'm not going to use color anymore?" Effects are a color and a tool. You can be subtle or crazy. Much of the time I use one or two pedals. But every once in a while I go Morello and hook up all my weird effects and see where my imagination takes me (not that he really uses a lot of effects, but he is extremely creative with them).
 
Re: I sure am glad that David Gilmour, Alex Lifeson, EVH, The Edge, Billy Gibbons...

Wow...some people are awful defensive in here :chairfall

I stand by my original post..for ME..I like sparingly used effects....I don't like overprocessed tones...YMMV. I'm not condemning anyone who has a chorus, reverb, delay,compressor and goose on all the time.

I also don't think the "plug and play" purist thing is the optimum either...nor do I fall in that camp.
 
Re: I sure am glad that David Gilmour, Alex Lifeson, EVH, The Edge, Billy Gibbons...

I think people don't understand that this discussion started pointing to a fundamental philosiphy. some are taking this to mean they suck because they use pedals. Others are taking it to mean their equipment is being called useless and cheap bc they use pedals.

Quite the contrary. It's a relevant discussion because i have lived it thousand times. It comes down to seeking sounds but standing by good tones, and good recorded tones. the 80s was tough because with a lot of technology it was a transitional period which barely started maturing in the 90s.

Just like with PODs and Digital, there is a ton of good, but you have to keep a bar set decently high and seek out good tones - else, music could go the way it did in some of the worst points in our modern history. I am shocked at some of the horrible edits, recordings, and auto tune I hear on the radio coming from Major Labels no doubt.

Nile Rogers spoke of one "boy band" (that's what I call them) type act (I know them so I will not say much beyond that) that he produced where he laid out tons of equipment for them. He pushed them to find sounds. They were so accustomed to digital. Mutt Lange will push players on technique and tone as well. I can say that I have finally pushed myself in the studio because friends would not let me get away with just using a pod and breezing thru. Somtimes the POD is the trick, other times a Marshall with a Fuzz, or a Bogner with a Fulltone 2, etc etc - but it all comes down to make it sound fundamentally good.

Whenever someone tries to "fix it in the mix" that's when the problems tend to begin.
 
Re: I sure am glad that David Gilmour, Alex Lifeson, EVH, The Edge, Billy Gibbons...

Great topic, guys!

This is all amusing, by virtue of the fact that, about a year or so ago, I found myself questioning similar things about my own musical attitude, and it was all because of a few "elitist" type attitudes in a post which was simply asking "which chorus do you recommend?". I bet a few of those proponents have decided to reconsider their statements now that there are a few forum members admitting they LIKE using effects. Then again, I'm in a cynical mood today, and not my usual self.

Whenever I hear overused cliches like "just a guitar straight into the amp, man", "I don't do solos, man, I just play for the song" or anything along those lines, I feel nothing but contempt. Why? Because it seems, to me, to be saying "I read this in a guitar magazine/heard another guitar player say it, and, just so you think I'm cool, I'm gonna regurgitate it as my own opinion".

To those of you who said "use what you want, and enjoy it"...thank you, very much. I wholeheartedly agree with that. This whole "I'm more sophisticated/valid than you" thing got old years ago.
 
Re: I sure am glad that David Gilmour, Alex Lifeson, EVH, The Edge, Billy Gibbons...

I don't do solos, I just play for the song, man
 
Re: I sure am glad that David Gilmour, Alex Lifeson, EVH, The Edge, Billy Gibbons...

Bwa ha ha!

Wanna some Van Halen Distortion strings, O?
 
Re: I sure am glad that David Gilmour, Alex Lifeson, EVH, The Edge, Billy Gibbons...

gripweed said:
Twas ever thus...

Do that many guitar players have a unique tone today? I don't really hear that many tones that inspire me today. There are some great players with great tones, but there are also so many SRV clones, scooped metal tones, bubblegum punk tones, etc that all sound the same to me. I agree that effects should be used to create.

As for using effects -- other artists don't limit themselves like guitar purists do. Can you imagine a painter saying "I'm not going to use color anymore?" Effects are a color and a tool. You can be subtle or crazy. Much of the time I use one or two pedals. But every once in a while I go Morello and hook up all my weird effects and see where my imagination takes me (not that he really uses a lot of effects, but he is extremely creative with them).
Click to expand...

I do use effects... sparingly and try not to over do it. The music I play doesn't require it, although I love all different kinds of tones....Adrian Belew comes to mind. :)

There are very few really recognizable guitar tones and I believe, some of it is because, most bands don't produce themselves like in days past. A lot of the older cats would get an engineer to get the tones that they were hearing in their head rather than go with a producers "tried & true" methods of recording. There seems to be a lot less experimenting with tone or at very least, it isn't in commercial music.
 
Re: I sure am glad that David Gilmour, Alex Lifeson, EVH, The Edge, Billy Gibbons...

I dont really use any effects. Not that I'm a purist.. I just dont like the sound of chorus cleans (I know too many jazz players who waaaay overuse it). Flanger can be nice in small amounts. I have an overdrive pedal but its a bit of a hassle, so I often ignore plugging it in.

I really, really want a Phase 90 for some odd, wierd reason, and a slapback delay of some sort. Or better yet, a delay that can do slap back, and be a normal delay otherwise. Suggestions?

Im a rhythm player though, so for me, noones really listening for my tone, im just there to back up the lead player, keep the song moving etc. When in a jazz situation, I just play on the overdrive channel on light gain, and turn the volume down on my guitar till it's clean, and use the volume control for solo boosts.
 
Re: I sure am glad that David Gilmour, Alex Lifeson, EVH, The Edge, Billy Gibbons...

Mincer said:
yeah...but then you are just doing what the list of stars did...and they already did it.
i say, go crazy!! mix cheap amps with expensive ones, mix pedals and racks, plug into cheap PC speakers or a Bose surround system- have a blast! There are lots of great tones from unlikely places waiting to be discovered.
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I totally agree. No such thing as a bad tone in my book, when used in the right context. Great sounds can be found in the wierdest of places.
 
Re: I sure am glad that David Gilmour, Alex Lifeson, EVH, The Edge, Billy Gibbons...

skyking said:
I think one of the things that made the 80's in my opinion so bad was the recording. All of the new digital equipment and tools they used back then were crap, but it was a new sound. The sound of those records were just terrible, and who can forget the keytar! the drums sounded awful, and everything just got blown out of proportion. the producers in those days made really great artists sound bad. there were exceptions, but for the most part i would like to erase a lot of the stuff from the 80's from my mind.
Click to expand...

I agree, particularly the digital drums with gated reverb on top of that! I HATE plastic drums!!!

The only exception is Phil Collins' gated reverb drums, he somehow managed to make it sound...organic, for lack of a better word -- and made it his own sound which I really liked (and still do in the right context), though of course it didn't hurt that he was gate-reverbing real drums. You know from just one hit on the snare or tom that it's him.

Yes, the keytar generally sucked and still does, though sometimes Jan Hammer made it work on his Miami Vice stuff. Just keep it in small doses, please...

Probably the one guy that did the most to popularize the chorus was Andy Summers. He made it work -- it's everyone else that overdid it by pasting it over every tone they had, whether it worked or not.
 
Re: I sure am glad that David Gilmour, Alex Lifeson, EVH, The Edge, Billy Gibbons...

I think technically the pickups in a guitar and the amp being used are "effects", they've been designed to produce a certain sound or tone.

But, back on the topic - effects pedals are great tools, use them wisely and they can add significantly to a players tone, use them unwisely and you get bashed on threads like this! I love the sound I get out of my 18watter being pushed with and OCD pedal and I get complimented on the tone all the time. Would it sound the same without the OCD, nope, I've tried it on several occasions - that amp and that pedal are a great match.
 
Re: I sure am glad that David Gilmour, Alex Lifeson, EVH, The Edge, Billy Gibbons...

I agree with some of the previous posts. It was the late eighties glam that screwed it up for everyone. With low end impotence, delay mud and freaking nebulah reverb. To me, eighties tone wise are Savatage, Scorpions, Helloween, No Rest For The Wicked, Accept, Van Halen, Seventh Star and Eternal Idol by Sabbath, Metallica, Malmsteen, Dokken, although you could argue about his tone from album to album, the Beast From The East is a fantastic tone, Motley Crue - the tone of Theater of Pain and Girls Girls Girls sucked, but the tone on Shout at The Devil is pure metal, Randy Rhoads live stuff, Blackmore had great tone in the eighties, John Sykes, Judas Priest, Skid Row, Maiden's Somewhere in time, Vitto Bratta, now to me that's great tones, that's eighties, nineties have nothing to show with all of that emo/grunge stuff, just bashing you strings with super mids or scooped mids on the amp and leting it ring does not qualify as great tone, there is only one tone that really blew me away from the nineties - RAMMSTEIN. And just to go back to the topic, "my eighties" are all about some stomp mojo and finger magic.
 
Re: I sure am glad that David Gilmour, Alex Lifeson, EVH, The Edge, Billy Gibbons...

I love using a Wah wah (it's the main and almost only effect I use), I love funk so it explains alot...

There are too many bad players who use effects to cover for their bad chops, and too many bad players who don't use effects because you need to some practice to make it right- and all the bad players have a philosophy and an agenda: I don't use effect because I like to keep it pure... I use effects because I want to create new sounds... blah...

If you feel good with effects use them- EVH, Hendrix, Gilmour, Buddy Guy, Vernon Reid, Scofield, Wah Wah Watson (:))... they did amazing things with them...
If you feel the you loose tone or it's not your style... Albert Collins, Roy Buchanen, Robert Cray, Angus Young- they were all great without using effects...

Do what ever you want, there's room for everybody... and don't patronize someone that's not like you!
 
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