I want to ask the PU group this question, not other groups, for many reasons

[SJ318]

I know this is for a different forum, but the traffic and ancillary questions, + volume of people, make me want to ask here.Too many reasons to explain, forgive me.
You can hear my predicament on YouTube. I was recorded at a blues festival last week, a band called Eddie Gillan's Red Roosters.
A fan of mine put up 8 videos of me playing. I'm the guy w/ the Tele sunburst, and the snow white Strat. Both bridge pups have ECP Freedom bridge pickups. I am playing a Fender HR Deluxe w/V30 cab.
Leader of band wants me to use a blues Jr.lll, says I am too loud. I have a blues Jr. But don't want to buy another V30 or take my V30 and put it in my blues Jr. I like my V30 cab as is and he says no to that. Which is just plain stupid.
So it comes to this. He has 2 Jr.s, the other with a G12. If my guitars sound good through his G12 Blues Jr. Maybe I could make thst work. But I can't try them out side by side for reasons that take up too much space. Is a G12, from 20 feet away, as loud and have the full mids of a V30, all and everything being equal.
This is, TOO ME, a very serious question. If most of you say there's not enough difference to tell, maybe I'll try it. If otherwise, I might have stand my ground, yeah, we argued for an hour, told him I'd turn down, just needs to ask me, etc. I feel this is just playground junior high bullying as he feels he gets better-he should get "more guitar" if you know what I mean.
Listen to me on Steppin' Out and his volume as he solos for one verse in the middle. I think he is plenty loud.
Please take me seriously. Thank you very very much.
Steven John Buffington.

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: I want to ask the PU group this question, not other groups, for many reasons

Never ever ever ever change to please other people.

Get a second opinion from someone with good ears who is not a friend of the band and thus not on anyone's "side". Have them listen to a live jam and determine if your guitar is so much/unreasonably louder.

Record live to 2 tracks with the guitars slightly panned or dead center (not split hard left/right) and listen to the playback to determine, as a band, if he's right or not.

Angle your cab a bit so he doesn't hear as much of yours, but you don't lose volume to the crowd, or set up some sort of sound deflector. If you're all using in-ear monitors and miked cabs, have the soundguy set him a custom mix where he hears more of his own guitar than yours. If he's basing his opinion on the YT videos, and the video was shot closer to your amp, then your amp will be louder. If the video is shot closer to his amp, I'm sure he'd say it was fine.

It's high-school shenanigans and I'd either lay the guy out with a guitar across his face or he'd find another guitarist, because a band is not about "me", even if you are "the leader".

 

[AlexR]

Re: I want to ask the PU group this question, not other groups, for many reasons

On the other hand, part of being in a band is compromise.
If you can't learn to put your own ego aside to benefit the whole then perhaps you are not best suited to playing with other musos.

I keeping getting a mental image of Jack Black's character in the early scenes of School Of Rock

 

[treyhaislip]

Re: I want to ask the PU group this question, not other groups, for many reasons

I would say stick with your gear and try and get to a compromise on the sound. If someone was trying to force me to use gear that was not mine I'd politely say sorry but aint gonna happen.

 

[Rand-O-Monium]

Re: I want to ask the PU group this question, not other groups, for many reasons

Use his amp.

Blow it up.

.02

 

[mamm]

Re: I want to ask the PU group this question, not other groups, for many reasons

Hey, nice chops man!

Now on to the subject at hand: ah, the joys of inter-band politics! lol...

Is the vocalist Eddie Gillan? If that's the case, well, it's his band (it says so in the name of the band). Does he pay you to be his sideman? If you are a hired gun, maybe you should do whatever he tells you to do.

But if this isn't a hired sideman situation, tell him to go f... himself. Your guitar's volume is fine (at least in the above video). You should also tell him that his soloing sucks (compared to yours). He should concentrate on singing and playing rhythm.

 

[frankfalbo]

Re: I want to ask the PU group this question, not other groups, for many reasons



You both are plenty loud compared to drums and bass. You are louder. To suggest he's loud enough, because he is audible when he solos, doesn't capture what makes a good mix necessarily. Your chord stabs still feel like they jump out ahead of his solos.

Part of it could just be that you need to back way down when he solos as a courtesy, so he feels like you're giving him space. Volume wars are not always about volume. They can be just as much about pick attack and dynamics, facial expressions, and attitude.

 

[sosomething]

Re: I want to ask the PU group this question, not other groups, for many reasons

1.) When you solo, your volume is fine.

2.) When he solos, you are too loud.

3.) Neither of you need to switch amps to correct this.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: I want to ask the PU group this question, not other groups, for many reasons

1.) When you solo, your volume is fine.

2.) When he solos, you are too loud.

3.) Neither of you need to switch amps to correct this.

+ 1.

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: I want to ask the PU group this question, not other groups, for many reasons

On paper, a Fender HRDx ought to be more powerful than a Blues Junior BUT the amplifiers are not the whole story.

If you have decent quality guitars and pickups whereas the bandleader has some Dogbreath Budgetocaster, he is always going to be at a disadvantage.

On examples of the Fender Hot Rod Deluxe with dual input sockets, Input 2 is more attenuated than Input 1. This might be enough to achieve the requested reduction in sound pressure level.

 

[treyhaislip]

Re: I want to ask the PU group this question, not other groups, for many reasons

On paper, a Fender HRDx ought to be more powerful than a Blues Junior BUT the amplifiers are not the whole story.

If you have decent quality guitars and pickups whereas the bandleader has some Dogbreath Budgetocaster, he is always going to be at a disadvantage.

On examples of the Fender Hot Rod Deluxe with dual input sockets, Input 2 is more attenuated than Input 1. This might be enough to achieve the requested reduction in sound pressure level.

I've heard that about the Hot Rod Deluxe...I got the Volume Pot modded/upgraded to stop the nothing to earache volume knob lol I will have to try the 2nd input at the next practice.

 

[SJ318]

Re: I want to ask the PU group this question, not other groups, for many reasons

Thanks everyone.
The main point seems to be I am plain too loud when he plays. And yeah, it's his band, but when we started it was "featuring Steve Buffington" I have a fairly good fan club around Tacoma because during high school (1969-71) - I was not only the best in town, but the ONLY one around!. Kind of cornered the market those days. I left town for 40 years or so. Now there are many more versed than I but my fan club likes getting old with me, I guess. There's a guy around here named Dean Reichart, and he eats me for breakfast. Really good.
I agree with all of you. I thought I was turning down enough, but now that I watch it with fresher ears, I agree I should back down in his solos much more. We normally don't get paid and do it for love these days, every now and then if we get paid, it is equal.
All good answers, Thank you. Still wonder about the volume of V30 vs. G12. I am very easy to compromise with, but don't do so well with being "ordered" to do something in band I play for free and fun. If a V30 is louder than a G12, I can, after more thought, buy a V30 and use his B.jr. thus instantly (after reading your answers) give him a feeling of peace, and be careful to stay low but supportive during his solos.
Again, Thanks
SJ

 

[allbutromeo]

Re: I want to ask the PU group this question, not other groups, for many reasons

It's hard to tell from YouTube videos as some of them the mix seems fine and others you are a little too loud, plus as anyone whose played enough outdoor gigs knows that the way sound carries outside is very tricky (this could also be why the guitars sound so much louder than bass and drums). Another thing that the video can't tell you is what the mix on stage is, I've played plenty of gigs inside and out where the Mains mix sounds fine, but I can't hear myself or other band members. The diplomatic solutions would either be A) Try the Blues Jr and if you don't like it try to coving him to let you use your rig, or B) Tell him that you would rather use what you have and ask him to work with you in a band situation to adjust you amp settings to levels that will allow you to keep YOUR tone as closely as possible while keeping the volume at a level that you both, along with the rest of the band, find agreeable.

 

[Nostalgic Distortion]

Re: I want to ask the PU group this question, not other groups, for many reasons

1.) When you solo, your volume is fine.

2.) When he solos, you are too loud.

3.) Neither of you need to switch amps to correct this.

+ me too!!!

 

[SJ318]

Re: I want to ask the PU group this question, not other groups, for many reasons

Thanks again,
I forgot to say that even though a few of the responses are are at odds with each other, they all as a group make good sense together.
Something I should say: I have been *****ing about how bad my back is since I got here. All of that is true and even worse as the years pile up. Before that gig, I took 40 mg of fast acting oxycodone (not oxycontin) about ten minutes before we went on, or I would not have been able. I look normal I guess, but I look older than my years. My face looks like I have been on a prison work detail for a long time. After that, I could only walk about 1 mile for about 4-5 days. Getting almost back to my regular 2 mile walk and 2 mile stationary bike(which is still at 1 mile). Allbutromeo, that's a good path also. I am glad that most of you think the same, I feel better about him and less self-righteous about myself.
Thanks Much. SJ

 

[Securb]

Re: I want to ask the PU group this question, not other groups, for many reasons

Like others have said I dont think either of you are comping when the other guy is playing. It is constantly like two lead guitars are up there, never a rhythm and a lead. You guys could switch to Fender Champs and you are going to have the same problem. When the other guy is playing a lead back of on your volume and join the bass and drums in the rhythm section. It takes a lot more skill in some ways to be a great rhythm guitarist, that is why there are so few great ones. Cool sounding band by the way.

 

[EDX]

Re: I want to ask the PU group this question, not other groups, for many reasons

if you really don't want to use his blues jr, then throw an eq pedal, and set it to scoop the mids when he solos, you will not loose any volume, but with the mids scooped he will have space to hear himself better while soloing, thus giving the ilusion of his guitar being louder (at least on the mid frequencies) while you can still be heard

 

[blueman335]

Re: I want to ask the PU group this question, not other groups, for many reasons

1.) When you solo, your volume is fine.

2.) When he solos, you are too loud.

3.) Neither of you need to switch amps to correct this.

+1. It's not an amp issue. Guitars need to be at a reduced volume for rhythm, especially when there's another guitar or keyboard in the band. To me that's basic stage etiquette. It's not fair to dominate the songs, it's a whole band. I understand their beef, and your side of it is that the right solution wasn't suggested. All that's needed is using your guitar's volume controls, or a pedal to boost your solos.

I played with a guitarist auditioning for a spot in a band, and he played all his rhythm and solos at full volume. Instead of being able to focus on any creativity and subtleties in my playing, I was fighting to be heard. It was pretty annoying. I finally said to him: 'What the hell are you doing?' A band's a group effort, it's not just one person. Everybody's there for a reason. If the band has issues with someone's volume, you can bet people in the audience do too.

 

[SJ318]

Re: I want to ask the PU group this question, not other groups, for many reasons

Yes, I agree.
I was trying to tell him regardless of amp, it's how we set them and set pedals, etc.. I did not think I was too loud, but now that so many people have pointed it out, after going back to the videos, I agree.
My point (as Secrub blueman335 and EDX pointed out) to Ed initially, when this came up, was "Hey, no problem, I can turn down, whatever we need" That was my first response. He would not entertain that and got fixated on the matching amps. I think I could rise to the occasion, and comp properly, be cognitive of what is going around me while at the same time making me a better band mate.
I would be thrilled to solve it the adult way-the way all of you are pointing out, but I know this guy, and he is super stubborn. On the blues song "Long Distance call" I wanted a quiet 2 verse section so I didn't have to play on ten. I got in verbal arguments with him with the band sitting there. He was playing a very loud chunka chunka rhythm behind me, but he forced me to play loud or not be heard. The band agreed immediately and it took weeks before he would go for it, with the statement "F***, whatever man, I'll just lean on my amp, do nothing while you do whatever", very non-agreeable. It's like, "it's my ball, and if you don't like it, I'll take it home." Like we are 12 years old. That is what it took to get him to play quietly on a blues solo. So while I agree with all of you, Good sense seems to be a sticking point as it is "his" band. A high school friend of mine from California said the same things you all said.
I will try to start up negotiations with a pleasant demeanor, and see how it goes. Maybe a third person he wants can come and sort it out to his satisfaction. As much as I hate trying to compromise with him, I'll do anything to play till I physically can't. I love playing live. pretty much all I look forward to.
Thanks guys,
Smart Thread, from all of you.
SJ

 

[AlexR]

Re: I want to ask the PU group this question, not other groups, for many reasons

Sometimes when people are in the middle of being annoyed all logic and reason goes out the window.......and they get fixated only on the solution they themselves have come up with. Once a bit more calm then the ability to see other options comes in.
Its always good for him to see that you will consider his proposal, but you'd like to 'try out' a couple of other options as well. It could be as easy as you throttling back the vol control on the guitar.......especially if this has the effect of shunting some of the highs to ground and giving him more cut-through