Ideal cover band axe?

[sumitagarwal]

Re: Ideal cover band axe?

I was thinking some more about this and really a lot of the "best cover band axe" question basically comes down to pickup layout and control scheme. Wood selection, bolt-on-vs-set, and even the nuances of different humbuckers or different single coils largely come down to personal preference. However, I do think noise-cancelling should be a top priority because of unpredictable/seedy environs (but I'm in NYC, so maybe I'm just projecting).

I realized that when it comes to control schemes, you can't really know how practical an arrangement is until you've used it, but there *are* some numbers we can start using to get an idea, and eliminate the clearly bonkers options.

Everyone is used to comparing number of tones already (hell, that's how PRS names the 513, 408, and 509. Reminds me of old Ferrari naming schemes around cylinder counts, like the 512). We of course don't count the variances from dialing around the knobs.

So for that we've got:
* Frankenstrat - 1
* LP - 3
* Tele - 3
* Strat - 5

Simple enough. Lets add in some modern variations:
* LP with two coil-splits - 8
* Strat HSS with S-1 and passing lane - 9
* LP with Jimmy Page wiring - 16?
* 2017+ Charvel with "6-pack" wiring - 6
* Freeway Switch - 6
* PRS 509 - 9
* P-Rails, 3-way, 2 push/pull - 12
https://www.seymourduncan.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/2PRail_3G_1VppSPL_1TppSPL.pdf


BUT, that only tells you how many tones you access in, say, a studio situation. For dependable live use, we also need to calculate: total number of switching positions (including redundant sounds):

* LP with two coil-splits - 3*2*2 = 12
* Strat HSS with S-1 and passing lane - 5*2*2 = 20
* LP with Jimmy Page wiring - 3*2*2*2*2 = 48?!
* 2017+ Charvel with "6-pack" wiring - 3*2 = 6
* Freeway Switch - 6
* PRS 509 - 5*2*2 = 20
* P-Rails, 3-way, 2 push/pull - 3*2*2 = 12

You could stop there and I think a lot of people could look at the above to get a feel for the variety and level of effort they're game for. But we can even take it a step further and assign a "klutz quotient" that looks at the efficiency of each scheme:
* LP with two coil-splits - 8/12 = 75%
* Strat HSS with S-1 and passing lane - 9/20 = 45% (to be fair, without passing lane this is 90%)
* LP with Jimmy Page wiring - 16/48 = 33%
* 2017+ Charvel with "6-pack" wiring - 6/6 = 100%!
* Freeway Switch - 6/6 = 100%
* PRS 509 - 9/20 = 45% (after this many years of tinkering, and without being beholden to a heritage layout or standardized pickups this is the best they could do?)
* P-Rails, 3-way, 2 push/pull - 12/12 = 100%

Of course, none of the above accounts for how *good* the available tones are, so you'd need to look individually at each setup for that, but I think this is useful anyway, especially in trying to understand why so many players explore complex setups for tone variety but end up returning back to a few simple approaches.

 

[Securb]

Re: Ideal cover band axe?

Assumptions (which I could be wrong on):
* Today's signal flows make it easier to get modern sounds out of vintage pickups than vintage sounds out of modern pickups

Not saying you are wrong just stating my experience. I have an Ibanez Iceman with a Dimebucker in the bridge. Plugged into my Excelsior it has engough power to send that amp into a great classic rock break-up (no pedals just an axe and an amp). I play a lot of Stones and Who with this setup. If I split the coil I lose a bit of the bite (but not the tone) and I can go as deep into the classic rock catalog as I want with the right stomp. The guitar also has a Jazz in the neck which is also split, I could do any gig I wanted with that one guitar.

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Ideal cover band axe?

I was thinking some more about this and really a lot of the "best cover band axe" question basically comes down to pickup layout and control scheme.

I like your summation- to add a little-

Yep, the cover guitars I have built for me and my clients are never finished on first pass- this is a really personal thing and all you can do is collect the ideas that are likely to work for you. And quite a few of these builds have been duplicated over the years with all the same design in a different body or same functionality with totally different controls- there is almost always something that can be refined.

We talked earlier about 25.5 probably better emulates 24.75 instead of going the other way, but, there is a comfort level involved and some just can't handle long scale.

As for pickups, personally, I believe there has to be a mix of full size and single coil size pups, simply due to the size of the 'string window' (unless you plan to model pickups as mentioned much earlier). As we know from HSS designs, that bridge humbucker can sound a lot like a neck with the right controls.

And regarding singles, again this is a personal choice, but for covers guitars, I strongly recommend dual blade designs- As you said, anyone who's ever been stuck with florescent hum, knows you have to have noise rejection. At the same time, spin a split and parallel to self can make these pups highly quacky and some (especially Joe Bardens) are right quacky right out of the box. Put them in series and you have a totally different animal.

To me, the crucial point is to understand and accept that this guitar will never have the total sound of the axes it is emulating- that's why we all have our favorite axes safely unmodified at home.

But after many, many years of tweak this and try that, I have a few designs that go beyond cover- Their versatility actually opens new tones that my stock instruments don't have.

Great thread- will be mining this for future designs

 

[Obsessive Compulsive]

Re: Ideal cover band axe?

Silly goose, tone isn't science, it's a feeling. You can't describe feelings scientifically.

In other words, it's subjective and he should keep it to himself. He wraps his BS that only exists in his head in such a way that YOU actually believe that it's a universal fact.

 

[Discharged]

Re: Ideal cover band axe?

I was thinking some more about this and really a lot of the "best cover band axe" question basically comes down to pickup layout and control scheme. Wood selection, bolt-on-vs-set, and even the nuances of different humbuckers or different single coils largely come down to personal preference. However, I do think noise-cancelling should be a top priority because of unpredictable/seedy environs (but I'm in NYC, so maybe I'm just projecting).

I realized that when it comes to control schemes, you can't really know how practical an arrangement is until you've used it, but there *are* some numbers we can start using to get an idea, and eliminate the clearly bonkers options.

Everyone is used to comparing number of tones already (hell, that's how PRS names the 513, 408, and 509. Reminds me of old Ferrari naming schemes around cylinder counts, like the 512). We of course don't count the variances from dialing around the knobs.

So for that we've got:
* Frankenstrat - 1
* LP - 3
* Tele - 3
* Strat - 5

Simple enough. Lets add in some modern variations:
* LP with two coil-splits - 8
* Strat HSS with S-1 and passing lane - 9
* LP with Jimmy Page wiring - 16?
* 2017+ Charvel with "6-pack" wiring - 6
* Freeway Switch - 6
* PRS 509 - 9
* P-Rails, 3-way, 2 push/pull - 12
https://www.seymourduncan.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/2PRail_3G_1VppSPL_1TppSPL.pdf


BUT, that only tells you how many tones you access in, say, a studio situation. For dependable live use, we also need to calculate: total number of switching positions (including redundant sounds):

* LP with two coil-splits - 3*2*2 = 12
* Strat HSS with S-1 and passing lane - 5*2*2 = 20
* LP with Jimmy Page wiring - 3*2*2*2*2 = 48?!
* 2017+ Charvel with "6-pack" wiring - 3*2 = 6
* Freeway Switch - 6
* PRS 509 - 5*2*2 = 20
* P-Rails, 3-way, 2 push/pull - 3*2*2 = 12

You could stop there and I think a lot of people could look at the above to get a feel for the variety and level of effort they're game for. But we can even take it a step further and assign a "klutz quotient" that looks at the efficiency of each scheme:
* LP with two coil-splits - 8/12 = 75%
* Strat HSS with S-1 and passing lane - 9/20 = 45% (to be fair, without passing lane this is 90%)
* LP with Jimmy Page wiring - 16/48 = 33%
* 2017+ Charvel with "6-pack" wiring - 6/6 = 100%!
* Freeway Switch - 6/6 = 100%
* PRS 509 - 9/20 = 45% (after this many years of tinkering, and without being beholden to a heritage layout or standardized pickups this is the best they could do?)
* P-Rails, 3-way, 2 push/pull - 12/12 = 100%

Of course, none of the above accounts for how *good* the available tones are, so you'd need to look individually at each setup for that, but I think this is useful anyway, especially in trying to understand why so many players explore complex setups for tone variety but end up returning back to a few simple approaches.

When you're on stage, making people dance and having a good time, specially if you don't make breaks between songs, you'll realize that the simpler you keep it, the better.

On stage, most of the time you're looking at the audience and doing business decisions: who's dancing, who's drinking, who's seated and who's on the dance floor talking. You look at the bar and if you don't see a lot of activity, you start pushing with the music when the audience is ordering drinks, then you push some more to get most on the dance floor, and keep it up for two or three four-minute songs. Then you go slower, to clear the floor for the ones that want to get close to their dance partners, so the rest can go back to the bar and order more drinks, while giving time to the bartenders to prepare for the next wave of drink comsumption. Once you learn how to read the room and the bar's workflow, THEN is when you get engaged again. Give the audience a good time and keep the bar busy. That's your job, and at the end of the day, the owner will look at the numbers and decide then, and not before, if you were worth his while.

Can you see why the best approach is to keep it simple? The strat, as a model, has all that's necessary: a switch with five positions, which three are used all the time, one less often, and one seldomly. Those are the tones you hear 95% of the time on the radio and on record. Those are the tones you need.

/Peter

 

[Chistopher]

Re: Ideal cover band axe?

When you're on stage, making people dance and having a good time, specially if you don't make breaks between songs, you'll realize that the simpler you keep it, the better.

On stage, most of the time you're looking at the audience and doing business decisions: who's dancing, who's drinking, who's seated and who's on the dance floor talking. You look at the bar and if you don't see a lot of activity, you start pushing with the music when the audience is ordering drinks, then you push some more to get most on the dance floor, and keep it up for two or three four-minute songs. Then you go slower, to clear the floor for the ones that want to get close to their dance partners, so the rest can go back to the bar and order more drinks, while giving time to the bartenders to prepare for the next wave of drink comsumption. Once you learn how to read the room and the bar's workflow, THEN is when you get engaged again. Give the audience a good time and keep the bar busy. That's your job, and at the end of the day, the owner will look at the numbers and decide then, and not before, if you were worth his while.

Can you see why the best approach is to keep it simple? The strat, as a model, has all that's necessary: a switch with five positions, which three are used all the time, one less often, and one seldomly. Those are the tones you hear 95% of the time on the radio and on record. Those are the tones you need.

/Peter

Hence, the indisputable quote "We're not musicians, we're beer salesmen."

 

[Discharged]

Re: Ideal cover band axe?

Hence, the indisputable quote "We're not musicians, we're beer salesmen."

Of course! That's what pay your band's salary and transport overhead costs, and the bar's personnel and real estate overhead costs. And of course, the owner would pretty much like to get his cut, too!

It's a proven business model that's worked for many years. Like in any other job, if you do your part, you also ensure not only your next gig, also the gig for the next band as well. Win/win. What's not to like?

/Peter

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: Ideal cover band axe?

I was thinking some more about this and really a lot of the "best cover band axe" question basically comes down to pickup layout and control scheme. Wood selection, bolt-on-vs-set, and even the nuances of different humbuckers or different single coils largely come down to personal preference. However, I do think noise-cancelling should be a top priority because of unpredictable/seedy environs (but I'm in NYC, so maybe I'm just projecting).

I realized that when it comes to control schemes, you can't really know how practical an arrangement is until you've used it, but there *are* some numbers we can start using to get an idea, and eliminate the clearly bonkers options.

Everyone is used to comparing number of tones already (hell, that's how PRS names the 513, 408, and 509. Reminds me of old Ferrari naming schemes around cylinder counts, like the 512). We of course don't count the variances from dialing around the knobs.

So for that we've got:
* Frankenstrat - 1
* LP - 3
* Tele - 3
* Strat - 5

Simple enough. Lets add in some modern variations:
* LP with two coil-splits - 8
* Strat HSS with S-1 and passing lane - 9
* LP with Jimmy Page wiring - 16?
* 2017+ Charvel with "6-pack" wiring - 6
* Freeway Switch - 6
* PRS 509 - 9
* P-Rails, 3-way, 2 push/pull - 12
https://www.seymourduncan.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/2PRail_3G_1VppSPL_1TppSPL.pdf


BUT, that only tells you how many tones you access in, say, a studio situation. For dependable live use, we also need to calculate: total number of switching positions (including redundant sounds):

* LP with two coil-splits - 3*2*2 = 12
* Strat HSS with S-1 and passing lane - 5*2*2 = 20
* LP with Jimmy Page wiring - 3*2*2*2*2 = 48?!
* 2017+ Charvel with "6-pack" wiring - 3*2 = 6
* Freeway Switch - 6
* PRS 509 - 5*2*2 = 20
* P-Rails, 3-way, 2 push/pull - 3*2*2 = 12

You could stop there and I think a lot of people could look at the above to get a feel for the variety and level of effort they're game for. But we can even take it a step further and assign a "klutz quotient" that looks at the efficiency of each scheme:
* LP with two coil-splits - 8/12 = 75%
* Strat HSS with S-1 and passing lane - 9/20 = 45% (to be fair, without passing lane this is 90%)
* LP with Jimmy Page wiring - 16/48 = 33%
* 2017+ Charvel with "6-pack" wiring - 6/6 = 100%!
* Freeway Switch - 6/6 = 100%
* PRS 509 - 9/20 = 45% (after this many years of tinkering, and without being beholden to a heritage layout or standardized pickups this is the best they could do?)
* P-Rails, 3-way, 2 push/pull - 12/12 = 100%

Of course, none of the above accounts for how *good* the available tones are, so you'd need to look individually at each setup for that, but I think this is useful anyway, especially in trying to understand why so many players explore complex setups for tone variety but end up returning back to a few simple approaches.

It's definitely a good experience to wire one test guitar with the N*(256) options to hear what they sound like, understand if/when you could use certain ones, and settle on the ones you find useful, then hard wire your #1 workhorse guitar with the few you need.

 

[donaldr]

Re: Ideal cover band axe?

Since you have an Axe-FX you can have any amp you want with any combination of effects and cabinets (IR). Returning to your Charvel, I would go HS instead of HSS.
I just finished restoring an MIM Strat with STK-S7 neck and Screamin Demon bridge, 3-way blade switch, dummy middle unplugged. This is a killing combo for cover bands, paired, like you, with a modeler (Avid Eleven Rack in my case). HS is more versatile for me (with these 2 pickups) as it gives me a nice neck/bridge tone not to far from a tele. The key is often to have a patch with way more gain than you will use for that song and lower the guitar volume. Screamin Demon is surprisingly good at clean and also a bit of a "single-coil" flavor when guitar volume down.

 

[sumitagarwal]

Re: Ideal cover band axe?

Since you have an Axe-FX you can have any amp you want with any combination of effects and cabinets (IR). Returning to your Charvel, I would go HS instead of HSS.
I just finished restoring an MIM Strat with STK-S7 neck and Screamin Demon bridge, 3-way blade switch, dummy middle unplugged. This is a killing combo for cover bands, paired, like you, with a modeler (Avid Eleven Rack in my case). HS is more versatile for me (with these 2 pickups) as it gives me a nice neck/bridge tone not to far from a tele. The key is often to have a patch with way more gain than you will use for that song and lower the guitar volume. Screamin Demon is surprisingly good at clean and also a bit of a "single-coil" flavor when guitar volume down.

Dude, I LOVE the Eleven Rack!!! I still have one which I mostly use for bass duties. As powerful as the Axe-FX II is, the Eleven Rack is what I really want it to work like... its just so much less time consuming to use and is designed more around my mindset of modeling classic analog gear and running with it instead of building effects from components (i.e. for a spring reverb on the Axe-FX you have to decide how many springs you want, what the decay time should be, brightness, etc, instead of just choosing the Fender reverb and knowing that all knobs are useful at either extremes of their ranges). The *only* reason I don't use the 11R anymore is they never added an option to use custom cab IR's, its such a shame.

On the HS, I think I would agree with you if I had to choose between that and an HSS with standard Strat wiring. But HSS with the S-1 wiring does give you that additional "Tele" sound without a lot of extra complication.

On the modeling side of things... its insane how sophisticated you can get, if you want to put in the effort. In the Axe-FX people even simulate different pickups using IR processing, so you can basically treat any guitar as a "Variax". That said, I'm looking to have a guitar I can just bring to a friend's house, plug into whatever random amp they have, and pull a range of tones out without touching anything other than my guitar.

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Ideal cover band axe?

Since you have an Axe-FX you can have any amp you want with any combination of effects and cabinets (IR).

Of course this is totally correct and glad to works for you. I've been at both extremes of the spectrum before, but these days I'm very much in the middle of the road.

Case in point, I was in a cover band when Rolland and Boss Cosm gear ramped up and was dialing in a patch for practically every song- The flexibility was kind of intoxicating, but I learned a big lesson one night when I missed a song substitution.

The count off felt weird, I hit the wrong chords up front and was in that 'what's wrong' space for a few seconds before I realized that not only was I playing the wrong song, I had the exactly wrong patch selected- The patch had modeled single coils and tapped echo and we were playing a very hard rock song- I didn't' have the correct patch in the set rotation, I know it lived a few banks and presets away and the best I could do was forward to a patch that wasn't as perfectly wrong as the one I started with.

Usually, you should keep playing with snafus as much of the audience is unaware, but in this case we should have stopped and 'rebooted'.

That taught me something- If I accidentally split a pickup instead of putting it in series, I can get back to a fatter sound really quickly. So now I mod my cover guitars to get in the ball park for the guitar sounds I need and when I model (about 50% of the time), I use far more generic patches- The chorus, OD and compressor settings assigned to the pedals are in the same place for each patch and those sounds are the same about 70% of the time.

Some of my flexibility has also come from moving to bands that make covers our own as opposed to trying to recreate the original.

But I also have learned to enjoy playing the guitar more and spending less time tweaking patches

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Ideal cover band axe?

That said, I'm looking to have a guitar I can just bring to a friend's house, plug into whatever random amp they have, and pull a range of tones out without touching anything other than my guitar.

+1
As you say, it's so nice to have a guitar that's flexible anywhere- My modelers never failed me live, but the 'what if' was always in the back of my mind

Again, I love this thread, thanks for launching!

 

[Chistopher]

Re: Ideal cover band axe?

Some of my flexibility has also come from moving to bands that make covers our own as opposed to trying to recreate the original.

I agree, but trying to get as close as you can to the original can be a learning experience for dialing in your tones. It can also be pretty cool if you do a totally abstract/radical cover of a song but can copy the exact lead tone of the original. Combine that with close scrutiny of the original lead players styles, and you can create a sort of illusion with the intent of making seem like you brought Randy Rhoads himself back from the dead to record parts for your cover of Crazy Train.

 

[zionstrat]

Re: Ideal cover band axe?

the intent of making seem like you brought Randy Rhoads himself back from the dead to record parts for your cover of Crazy Train.

Yes that can be fun-
Have recordings hidden around here somewhere from the old days when we nailed Sultans of Swing and More than a feeling- As you said, you learn so much when you dig into that level of detail.

But, one of the main reasons I don't go that direction any more is vocals- 99% of the time, the band can get the sound, but vocals are almost always clearly a knock off and that makes me cringe-

So we got lucky on Sultans- I have that raspy Tom Petty sound and it was close enough to work

But More than a feeling? That took 3 really good singers (definitely not me), a ton of work, and as soon as one of the singers left we had to drop it.

But do enjoy it when it's there!

 

[Jacew]

Re: Ideal cover band axe?

I've never understood the point of covers/cover bands that attempt to sound like the original. It's sad seeing band trying to mimic someone else. Why not just play on tape if you go there.

Doing distinctively your own cover of the song is different thing.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: Ideal cover band axe?

I've never understood the point of covers/cover bands that attempt to sound like the original. It's sad seeing band trying to mimic someone else. Why not just play on tape if you go there.

Accurately doing covers is for fans of that band who will never be able to see them live because they don't exist anymore.

 

[Jacew]

Re: Ideal cover band axe?

As of the topic itself: I really like swiss army type guitar wirings. It seems I'm in the minority in approach to that however, prefering to use single coils for that setup.

I think it's easier to get humbucker type of from singlecoils than other way around. Couple of things employ with it to make it work are different tone circuits adjusted to series/single/parallel positions and tap with hot singles.

I also have project guitar with 4 singlecoils 2 humbucker pickguard. Im currently looking pickups for it, ceramic stock and tapped QP in bridge in series currently in sound really good with gain though. So I might them there, only replacing the one neck ceramic single for something else.

 

[Kac]

Re: Ideal cover band axe?

Anyways, assuming suitably low-noise singles, does anyone think HSS is better or worse than HSH for covering hits over multiple decades?

I don't know about better or worse, but HSS would be my preference over HSH.

 

[Jacew]

Re: Ideal cover band axe?

Accurately doing covers is for fans of that band who will never be able to see them live because they don't exist anymore.

Well, obviously. Being 25 and listening mostly music from 60-80's I can see idea in that.

Problem is that cover bands generally just hunt for original sounds of few hit songs. Basically trying to hit the lowest common nominator in the audience. It's business to boot and that's the saddest part of it. Who even wants to hear yet another perfect live cover of Born to be wild?

I think... Actually I know, that most people who like old music not made anymore would much more want to hear new music that sounds like it's from the past, or less known examples of that music, rather than worn out classic dished by a cover band.

 

[CaptainWhizz]

Re: Ideal cover band axe?

As the OP is starting with a Charvel, I loved the "6-pack of sound" demos from a year or so ago, that would be where I would start.

What about a JB or 59, Duckbucker, 59, and instead of a 5-way switch, 3 mini-switches to turn each pickup from series to off to parallel?