I'm really getting tire of....

[Lewguitar]

Re: I'm really getting tire of....

Regarding the "Bagful of Angry Bumble Bees" tone: that was the predominant amp tone I heard at NAMM. You'd walk into the convention center and immediately be assaulted with this buzzy, fuzzy distorted tone coming from everywhere. The sound of a jillion amps all set up with the master volume turned down and the gain way up.

And whether it was a guy playing a Strat or a guy playing some humbucker equipped metal ax, they all sounded about the same. Not that the guys couldn't play...just that they all tended to play the same sounding licks with the same tone!

Now I love creative players like Satriani, Vai, Eric Johnson, Jeff Beck, etc...so don't get me wrong. I love alot of heavy rock tones and play that way myself when I'm in the mood.

But being in a large convention hall for three days with that tone assaulting the senses on a continuous basis got old...fast!

Sounded like a swarm of bees and it never, never stopped.

 

[ErikH]

Re: I'm really getting tire of....

Sounds like you were in GC, Lew. :laugh2: :laugh2:

 

[Zerberus]

Re: I'm really getting tire of....

Is there a difference??? Other than than people having at least a clue of what they´re talking about (though if NAMM is like the Musikmesse, that still doesn´t necessarily apply to everyone )

OH, right, NAMM has a few good high end Guitars as well :laugh2::laugh2:

 

[ErikH]

Re: I'm really getting tire of....

Is there a difference??? Other than than people having at least a clue of what they´re talking about (though if NAMM is like the Musikmesse, that still doesn´t necessarily apply to everyone )

OH, right, NAMM has a few good high end Guitars as well :laugh2::laugh2:

.......and yet the average Joe couldn't touch the Gibsons. It's all about the "experience".

 

[Marcel]

Re: I'm really getting tire of....

The 50 watt Marshall 1/2 stack with Vintage 30's produces the same SPL's, as a 100 Watt Marshall 1/2 stack with Greenbacks, or 75's, but it won't have as much clean head room.

yes!

 

[Skarekrough]

Re: I'm really getting tire of....

If I had a buck for every bar owner that cited bands being too damned loud and guitar players with half and full stacks as reason for going karaoke I'd have more than enough to eat VERY well for a few weeks...and I'm a fat man with every intention of remaining one!

As was said early on...you should buy an amp geared towards the size of the venues you're playing. If you play a place where you need 100 watts then fine, have a blast. But when you HAVE to throttle the amp down in a smaller venue the fact of the matter is alot of amps sound like **** when that's done to them.

Sure....if you buy a sportscar you don't have to drive it at top-speed all the time. But I DEFY you to obey the speed limits on the highway. I DEFY you to put your money where your mouth is and but a governor on a Lamborghini so it won't go over 55 MPH.

The world has changed since 100 watt heads became the standard. Venues have changed. Why people go out to clubs and bars has changed.

As musicians we HAVE to change and accomodate....otherwise we better get REALLY ****ing good at DJing and Karaoke because they're what's taking over. Look around. Think about how many places used to have live music 3 or more nights a week. Do they still do that anymore?

I remember places that had live bands 7 nights a week. Now Friday is bands. Thursday and Saturday are DJ's, Sunday is Karaoke and Tuesday is Trivia.

We are no longer the only game in town when it comes to playing bars. And every bridge you burn means a bridge that potentially NO band is going to be able to cross any longer.

I know this is unpopular to alot of folks....but it's the truth. Were a dying breed. Venues are closing left and right and it's those that have refused to evolve that close the doors for us.

 

[shredaholic]

Re: I'm really getting tire of....

If I had a buck for every bar owner that cited bands being too damned loud and guitar players with half and full stacks as reason for going karaoke I'd have more than enough to eat VERY well for a few weeks...and I'm a fat man with every intention of remaining one!

As was said early on...you should buy an amp geared towards the size of the venues you're playing. If you play a place where you need 100 watts then fine, have a blast. But when you HAVE to throttle the amp down in a smaller venue the fact of the matter is alot of amps sound like **** when that's done to them.

Sure....if you buy a sportscar you don't have to drive it at top-speed all the time. But I DEFY you to obey the speed limits on the highway. I DEFY you to put your money where your mouth is and but a governor on a Lamborghini so it won't go over 55 MPH.

The world has changed since 100 watt heads became the standard. Venues have changed. Why people go out to clubs and bars has changed.

As musicians we HAVE to change and accomodate....otherwise we better get REALLY ****ing good at DJing and Karaoke because they're what's taking over. Look around. Think about how many places used to have live music 3 or more nights a week. Do they still do that anymore?

I remember places that had live bands 7 nights a week. Now Friday is bands. Thursday and Saturday are DJ's, Sunday is Karaoke and Tuesday is Trivia.

We are no longer the only game in town when it comes to playing bars. And every bridge you burn means a bridge that potentially NO band is going to be able to cross any longer.

I know this is unpopular to alot of folks....but it's the truth. Were a dying breed. Venues are closing left and right and it's those that have refused to evolve that close the doors for us.

I think you've totally missed the point though - like others you're assuming that 100w heads will be played loud, just because some idiots buy them and don't want to use master volumes or attenuators in small venues. The majority of guitarists that buy 100w heads realise that they need to reduce the volume by some method, but don't mind because they can't get that tone anywhere else. If I can get the tone I want from my 100w Plexi at bedroom volumes in my house, why shouldn't I be able to bring it to a gig?

 

[Kommerzbassist]

Re: I'm really getting tire of....

Like said in earlier posts, wattage depends on your situation. I used to get yelled at for playing my 10 watt amp and I usually have to keep my 60 watter down to 1 or below. Even for big gigs I can only see 100 watts for players who need very high headroom.

Wow that sucks... I never ever turn my amp under 3... playing that quiet is no fun in any way imo

 

[Zerberus]

Re: I'm really getting tire of....

I think you've totally missed the point though - like others you're assuming that 100w heads will be played loud, just because some idiots buy them and don't want to use master volumes or attenuators in small venues. The majority of guitarists that buy 100w heads realise that they need to reduce the volume by some method, but don't mind because they can't get that tone anywhere else. If I can get the tone I want from my 100w Plexi at bedroom volumes in my house, why shouldn't I be able to bring it to a gig?

Exactly... most of you guys seem to assume we´re always running with everything dimed....

Just becasue we use bigger amps doesn´t mean we don´t also know how to turn knobs in both directions

 

[Skarekrough]

Re: I'm really getting tire of....

I think you've totally missed the point though - like others you're assuming that 100w heads will be played loud, just because some idiots buy them and don't want to use master volumes or attenuators in small venues. The majority of guitarists that buy 100w heads realise that they need to reduce the volume by some method, but don't mind because they can't get that tone anywhere else. If I can get the tone I want from my 100w Plexi at bedroom volumes in my house, why shouldn't I be able to bring it to a gig?

I know that there are plenty of fine upstanding cats using 100 watt heads at reasonable volumes.

And I admit that much of the issue polarizes onto those folks because smaller amps that lack the output, well, just can't do it. You never hear someone saying in a big club setting that a tweed Champ was too loud; if it was getting too loud then the odds are it was the PA!

But for every dozen decent human beings turning down there's one who can't or won't for whatever reasons....and when they don't EVERY guitar player gets lumped in with those goddamned mutants.

 

[Vasshu the humanoid typhoon]

Re: I'm really getting tire of....

Well I always had complaints about my smaller amps being to sharp sounding....pushed does not always equal nice!!!!!
Well then I took one of the bigger amps and my 4x12!!
Even at almost talkover volumes, my guitar was fat and could get a nice feedback, I just set the amp so that it matched with the rest, had the amp and cab located as a sidefill, used my pedals and had a nice clean sound, had no complaints, not even from the notorious lead singer
I want that big headroom, and I can get that big sound at low volumes, and the pedals works great live.
I max out the amps at recording, but most of the time I just record with pedals too, I just want that foundation that supports me, and I do like some smaller amps but I prefer the big ones, not for the volume but the sound of fat clean tubeamp and a closed back cab.

 

[Aceman]

Re: I'm really getting tire of....

But for every dozen decent human beings turning down there's one who can't or won't for whatever reasons

Again, a reason why I generally avoid bands. I think you meant to say for every 1 decent human being there are a dozen who can't or won't.

And everyone talks about being heard over the drummer- This may be news to you, and most drummers, but they can play quietly if they want to! The don't have to pound the drum heads like they are pounding their pudd-heads.

I've never owned an amp with more than 65 watts, and I've never been able to figure out what to do with all that juice.

And, there is this thing called a PA...it would make my little Pro Jr. sound like a raging wall of Marshall Death. I'm pretty sure that those PA things can be used to feed something called a "monitor" if you need to hear it on stage. There was this little bar band called U2 with a guy called the Edge who did that. Used a lot of clean headroom too...

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: I'm really getting tire of....

I think my issue with 100 watt rock amps is: why own one if you can't turn it up and enjoy it without hurting yourself or your audience? Fabulous rock guitar tone can be had from amps that are 50 watts or alot less...as evidenced by Jeff Beck or Yngwie. So, unless you're a jazzer or country guy who wants clean tone, why would a rocker who craves distortion bother with a 100 watt amp that he has to keep the master volume set at 3 because it's to darn loud otherwise? :smack: I like smallish amps that I can turn up and get a natural overdriven tone out of. Sounds better. Less buzzy. Less corny. And you sound more like yourself. Cranked smaller amps let your own personality and touch come through more clearly, IMO. Lew

 

[Aceman]

Re: I'm really getting tire of....

+1

And I'll take a little liberty here and throw in a +1 one for Jimmy Page
(All apologies Pagey if you're out there and don't agree...)

 

[jdm61]

Re: I'm really getting tire of....

turn your mix down at the PA and turn up the amp......it sounds better 90% of the time anyway. use a little more PA volume for solo's if you are an a 2 plus guitar band..............there ya go......tone ANd consideration for your fellow man:fingersx:

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: I'm really getting tire of....

That Gosh awful Bagful of Angry Bumble Bees tone that I keep poking fun at is preamp tube distortion, BTW. It's what you get when you crank up the gain and turn the master volume way down. The output tubes are coasting.

But great overdriven tone comes about when the output stage is working hard too...not just the preamp tubes.

So that's another reason why 100 watt amps that are to loud for the gig and require the master volume to be set at 3 or 4 produce a corny "BABB" tone.

BABB = Bagful of Angry Bumble Bee tone, BTW. :laugh2:

 

[Wattage]

Re: I'm really getting tire of....

I have never gigged with an amp less than 50wts (Peavey Classic 50 which I sold shortly after becasue it couldn't keep up). I prefer 100wt amp and have done most of my gigs with even more power than that. I have never had an issue getting my sound or being heard and that works for me. Anyone who tells you how to get your sound when they don't know what it is or what exactly you are going for is a freaking twit.

I don't knock anyone for picking their rig small, medium or large.

 

[newking70]

Re: I'm really getting tire of....

Kids...they think they're indestructable. They're not.
Lew

sage words

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: I'm really getting tire of....

I've never gigged with an amp over 50watts. I don't need loud cleans. Even though I didn't gig with a loud amp, I still got asked to turn down from time to time. This was the reason I went to the Jubilee amp for gigging, because I could strike a balance between pushing the output stage a little bit without being too loud, and not being too dependant on the preamp. Even at 25 watts and the master tuned down to 4 you would still run into people thinking your too loud.

Yes the world has changed, but it's getting to the point of the absurd! I'm mean really; when you can hear pool balls klinking on gig tapes and people talking over the band at tables ten feet away! Do people want to be able to talk on cell phones 20 feet away from a live band? Live bands, even the most accomodating, are going to be louder than juke boxes or DJ music through the house PA. That's a fact of life. If they want live bands to be no louder than a karoke machine, then what's the point? What they want is totally unreasonable.

Most Drummers are much louder than they need to be, but there is a limit to how soft a drummer can play, and play well. There really is. When you carry this "turn it down" thing too far, the cymbals overide everthing and the band sounds too tinny-and it's still precieved too loud. I've heard of guys using Hot Plates on Blues Jr's to keep club owners and band mates happy. LOL

What gets me, is how loud acoustic bands get away with playing acoustic guitars and vocals through PA's. Usually, it's darn loud; so loud that the acoustics start to sound like banjo's. I played electric (through an eventually totally cranked super champ) with an otherwise acoustic band at a gig once. I could not hear myself, and I was two feet from the amp! Honost. However, if you show up with a Marshall they immdiantly assume your going to be too loud, even if your not. Sometimes people judge loudness with their eyes instead of their ears.

 

[The Golden Boy]

Re: I'm really getting tire of....

Yes, tone is subjective. Yes, a 100w circuit different than a 50w circuit. Yes, generally speaking, more power will generally yield more headroom. But for anyone looking for in excess of 50w, why? Clean headroom? There is a "low sensitivity" input to many amps. If you're really after clean headroom, a SS amp like a Roland JC120 will do clean headroom to cochlear damaging levels. Volume? I've played a few large stages in my day, and I can't think of one place (including outdoor venues) that had a PA that my 50watters weren't plenty. I can think of one time that I honestly wanted more than 50w and a 4x12 could give me- an outdoor frat party with only vocal PA support.

jimmy page allways used 50 watt heads, including his stadium tours.....

I don't know what the Rickenbacker heads he used were rated at, the Dual Showman is around 85 watts, the Orange was 120w I believe, and his Marshalls were 100w and then boosted to around 180w in 73 or so. If you're familiar with Zeppelin boots or even the recent DVD set, you'll notice a dramatic decline in Jimmy Page's tone after 73 or so. Gone are the days of that natural bloom he had in the Royal Albert Hall show, and then the warmest it gets is Achilles' Last Stand...

I don't knock anyone for picking their rig small, medium or large.

I totally do. I've seen dorks in local bands that bring two full stacks to a club with a 200 person capacity. I'm glad people have called me on what I thought was necessary. When I was a kid I walked into a 100w NMV Marshall and matching 4x12 from my uncle. My idea of great tone when I was 20 was a Tele Custom or a LP Deluxe through a Chandler Tube Driver into my Marshall with the channels jumpered. I have one live recording of that rig- and it SUCKED. The one recording session I used it with, I ran my distortion through a Hafler overdrive unit- my head was just used as a poweramp, the engineer gave one attempt to drive my amp before making me use the Hafler. I had attempted to crank that head, and it started sounding good around 7-8, but I couldn't even be in the room before my LP Deluxe was squealing. Fortunately, all the guys in my band and a local guitar hero of mine had an intervention with me. He brought his amp head and A/B'd his head and mine through my cab with my guitars. That was my impetus to get a MV head. Because I was completely brainwashed by the idea of a 100w head being THE head to have by rock and roll convention (such as Jimmy Page and his 180w heads, Richie Blackmore's 200w Pig...), I figured I needed at least 100w. I went through a few 100w MV heads before I lowered myself to REALLY trying out a 50w head. Suddenly it really made sense to me. You don't NEED 100w.

In my experience, as someone who likes a lot of gain, as someone who's owned and gigged extensively and recorded with 100w MV and NMV and 50w MV heads, is that 100w of tube amplification is overkill for most any rock and roll application. When you hear of 100w being "bigger" or having more "oomf," that's not apparent to me until you're getting that power section going.