I'm Sorry Guys

Re: I'm Sorry Guys

No no no!

I want them to cheap out on the equipment, because I can replace all that --- it's unscrew / screw type of stuff, dirt-ass-simple.

You can replace pickups, pots, caps, bridges, nuts, all day long, but this fact stands tall:

You can't fix ugly

Alright Ron
 
Re: I'm Sorry Guys

No no no!

I want them to cheap out on the equipment, because I can replace all that --- it's unscrew / screw type of stuff, dirt-ass-simple.

You can replace pickups, pots, caps, bridges, nuts, all day long, but this fact stands tall:

You can't fix ugly

Point taken, up to a point. I don't mind replacing electronics, or even pickups. On the other hand pots, switches, & caps are pretty inexpensive for top quality. There is no good excuse for putting in crap to start with. When you add in bridge & tuners it starts to get ridiculous. And a flamed maple cap on a crappy piece of wood is still going to sound like sh** You might as well have bought a neck and body from Warmoth in the first place.
 
Re: I'm Sorry Guys

Point taken, up to a point. I don't mind replacing electronics, or even pickups. On the other hand pots, switches, & caps are pretty inexpensive for top quality. There is no good excuse for putting in crap to start with. When you add in bridge & tuners it starts to get ridiculous. And a flamed maple cap on a crappy piece of wood is still going to sound like sh** You might as well have bought a neck and body from Warmoth in the first place.

2.95 compared to .17 cents a piece adds up very very quickly when you're producing thousands of units a year.

And if you believe that actual flame maple is used on a lot of the import and lesser quality instruments, well that just makes me giggle.
 
Re: I'm Sorry Guys

Yep, flame maple VENEER (as in a PAPER-THIN cover, thin enough to make DOZENS and DOZENS of guitars out of a single ordinary-thickness maple top), over a normal-thickness plain-maple top (if you're lucky that is).

Sometimes they even don't use a maple top at all, simply a photo-finish that LOOKS like it's figured maple (I once saw some years ago a Korean company, I wanna say Cort, do that).


Actually though, I kinda like the Figured Maple veneer over plain (hard) Maple top.
In all fairness figured maple only LOOKS better than plain Hard Maple does. Usually the plain variety can (will) SOUND better so it's a win-win IMO...
 
Re: I'm Sorry Guys

All I'm gonna say is that I'm kinda glad there are cheap guitars below $200. That way if kid wants to "learn" playing a guitar, parents wouldn't have to kick their kids a$$ when they stop playing. My nephew got a red strat that he dragged around the driveway of our house. I glad it was a 2k Gibson or I'd be ****ting bricks.
 
Re: I'm Sorry Guys

Eh, I don't know - my uncle-in-law has an Epiphone Special II that actually sounds really good. Scarily enough it's actually constructed well too. It never goes out of tune, it plays like butter, sounds really good unplugged (very punchy and full - not thin) and even looks decent. It's the exception though, definitely not the rule.

Wood is wood. It's all a game of luck. I've played some expensive guitars that sounded horrible. I've owned expensive guitars that would appall most folks here. My SG Custom had misaligned binding on the neck - how the **** does **** like that happen on a f'n 4k guitar????). If I **** on brands like Gibson it's because I've had all sorts of issues. There's nothing more frustrating than a Les Paul Standard that can't keep in tune. It's a fixed bridge and the string isn't pinched in the nut slot or bridge saddles, what else can possibly go wrong to make it so shoddy???? There's nothing like having a CS LP Special DC that had weak upper register notes (almost a weird resonating problem - it's not from the pickups, but almost from the fretwork or something).

I can assure you some stuff I've seen is just plain sad. These weren't sub $500 guitars either. I've owned some guitars that were impeccably crafted, but not that amazing sounding unplugged, my Don Grosh Bent Top Custom and Collings 290 guitars were like that. I laugh when people go "specs wise, it looks so nice!". Tone Pros bridge and Lollar pickups couldn't save that Collings 290.

Play what you like. I'll admit the one thing that keeps me tied to more expensive guitars is the feel of them. More expensive guitars generally feel much, much better. Cheap guitars feel, well, cheap IMHO. I'm sure there are exceptions, but that cheap, thick poly that seems to get abused does feel like crap.
 
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Re: I'm Sorry Guys

Australia... far far on the other side of the world...where no one ever returns guitars, because they would have to mortgage their house to do so.

Here in Australia if we want a really good production guitar we buy PRS
next on the list are the Japanese Fenders

and thats it..


or we get someone like me to make you one..

Must be a great place for luthiers to thrive!! Probably also more diversity in the shapes and sounds of guitars there especially if the luthier market does well because all the production pieces are turds.

Also in regard to your urban tale (which I don't doubt) you omitted Canada. I wonder whether we get the same stuff circulated in the US, or if we get what gets sent to Europe?

:hijacked:
 
Re: I'm Sorry Guys

Or you can be like me and buy those awesome guitars from other musicians (:D). I got an amazing deal on me strat, near-mint condition Mexi-Strat, played in neck (sorta), AND hardshell case for $285. Oh yes.
 
Re: I'm Sorry Guys

546414.jpg


$499.00

MSRP: $832.00

one of my favorite guitars. and its an epiphone.

it kicks ass. why?

anyone think its because some epiphones suck and others are decent?

Do you own one ?

Would love to see some pix if you have any !



James
 
Re: I'm Sorry Guys

Sadly, I do think it's simply the way things are.....consistent quality seems to cost more money. Sometimes we have had to learn that the hard (read : expensive) way, but that is a part of the journey from beginner to intermediate/ competent and possibly further. The ears and understanding of the instrument develop along with the time spent playing.

The problem is for beginners, parents of young learners, students and older players who have larger financial commitments, i.e. family, mortgage, kids expenses (schooling, clothing etc. etc.) ....in other words, those who have very limited funds to invest in music gear. Nowdays, there are plenty of cheap instruments that appear to have all the right appointments and look the business. It is, as is being mentioned all through this thread, a minefield sifting through all these low-priced instrument trying to find one that might be durable and last for a couple of years without causing the owner grief, and issues which they may not be aware of, and probably won't know how to deal with when they do discover it/them.

In the late 80's I was teaching at a music school, and if one of the students was thinking about buying a new instrument, I would tell them to find a few that they liked, and then I'd go with them to check out the ones they'd seen. I'd like to think that i saved a couple of them from buying something that was going to cause them problems along the track, and maybe steered them toward something that would keep them going for a couple of years without trouble.

It is not easy for someone with very limited funds to find good instruments, and I think it would be smart for them to try and find a more experienced player to go with them to the stores and take advantage of their more experienced eyes and ears in the quest to avoid buying a lemon. I think it is helpful if some of us make ourselves available to help others in cases like this, should we become aware of their desire to find a new instrument.

I'm also not sure whether saying 'you have to spend serious money to get a proper instrument', (even though it's largely true), is very helpful for those with limited funds. If you only had 2 or 3 hundred dollars to find an instrument and people start saying 'meh, you'll only get rubbish for that money', it must be a bit deflating for the budding player. Those with limited funds are already being overwhelmed by a smorgasbord of shiny, flashy instruments in their price-range, stuff that looks just like the gear their idols use, and no-one to give them a fair and honest appraisal of what those instruments may really be like behind the appearance.

Yeah, many of us have journeyed to the point where we own and play expensive instruments, but hey, let's not forget where we came from and that others are at that point and need help trying to find something decent in a sea of shiny poop, and they have very limited funds. They need our help more than they need to be told they haven't got a hope. And one thing we can do is lend them our experience in trying to find an instrument that will see them through the next phase of their development.

Just maybe it might behove us to try to understand and help, and remember that most of us began from a similar point, and if we had an instrument that we managed to learn on, it was quite likely luck that it didn't cause us too many problems. (Being a relic from the '70's, I gotta say that at least nowdays cheap instruments are probably better in many ways than the cheap instruments when i was young).
 
Re: I'm Sorry Guys

I go to Allan's fairly regularly just to look at things and sometimes play the acoustic guitars. The last few times I went there was the same BFG Les Paul (one of the Gary Moore ones, I think) on a rack, I looked at it closely and noticed severe splintering of the maple top where it meets the neck on the cutaway side, like the machine chewed it up. No joke.

.


I saw the same one at sam ash in indianapolis last week, had the same "chewed up" look on the top. I thought WTF?, and it was like 1,500 bucks or something.
 
Re: I'm Sorry Guys

Do you own one ?

Would love to see some pix if you have any !



James

100_5455.jpg


100_5460.jpg


100_5456-1.jpg


l_b20bd1f81a06497b89ac658a575aede9.jpg


l_3e8158f6c5e34b0c8dc155350cdfd28d.jpg



all i got.

and its not a custom shop gibson, or even an "actual" gibson, but it trumps my friend's epi les paul custom, and i actually prefer it to his faded SG.

it doesnt have the original dirty fingers pickup in it, maybe thats a good reason why i find it to be so alive and versatile.

it feels like the guitar actually breathes.
 
Re: I'm Sorry Guys

100_5455.jpg


100_5460.jpg


100_5456-1.jpg


l_b20bd1f81a06497b89ac658a575aede9.jpg


l_3e8158f6c5e34b0c8dc155350cdfd28d.jpg


all i got.

and its not a custom shop gibson, or even an "actual" gibson, but it trumps my friend's epi les paul custom, and i actually prefer it to his faded SG.

it doesnt have the original dirty fingers pickup in it, maybe thats a good reason why i find it to be so alive and versatile.

it feels like the guitar actually breathes.

Thanks for the pix man !
Is the guitar as light as it looks, or heavier, say, liek that of an Epi Dot ?
I was shocked the 1st time i picked up an Epi Dot, sooo much heavier than what i thought an Epi semi should have been.

What PU do you have in there now ?
Any feed back ishooo's ?

Would love to get one (one day) and give it an Esquire wiring treatment.
Also, like that colour much more than i ever thought i would !



James
 
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Re: I'm Sorry Guys

Thanks for the pix man !
Is the guitar as light as it looks, or heavier, say, liek that of an Epi Dot ?
I was shocked the 1st time i picked up an Epi Dot, sooo much heavier than what i thought an Epi semi should have been.

What PU do you have in there now ?
Any feed back ishooo's ?

Would love to get one (one day) and give it an Esquire wiring treatment.
Also, like that colour much more than i ever thought i would !



James

the guitar is light, not like you arent going to feel it, but light.
the pickup thats in there now is actually a neck pickup positioned upside down (so it resembles a bridge one).

its got a ceramic magnet, and though is marked at 8.30 DC resistance...

it feels much hotter than that. its a boutique maker i know nothing about. a forum bro helped me find it online, and i had never even heard of the brand.

it doesnt feed back too easily.

sure if youre cranked and face your amp, yes, but that happens with any guitar.


emptypockets has got a point, but my epi is an example of sometimes a good piece of wood as a starting point (even if its epi) works magic with the right pickup.
 
Re: I'm Sorry Guys

I'm also not sure whether saying 'you have to spend serious money to get a proper instrument', (even though it's largely true), is very helpful for those with limited funds. If you only had 2 or 3 hundred dollars to find an instrument and people start saying 'meh, you'll only get rubbish for that money', it must be a bit deflating for the budding player.

There is a reason for guitars to exist at all the different price points.

I think back to my first guitar, an import bolt on Les Paul Custom copy with action that was so high you could barely play it. I borrowed it from my older sister's boyfriend. I had it for 2 years or so while I tinkered around trying to learn how to play. I tought myself Paranoid on that guitar and learned the solo so I would have something to play when I demo'd real guitars.

That PoS guitar got me playing power chords and learning the pentatonic scale and basically got me started, but it was quickly apparent that I would need something better to move on.

My "move on" guitar was a Floyded MIJ Fender Stratocaster - I think it was like $450 or so in '90. Looking back on it, it wasn't that great of a guitar to my standards today - MIA Kahler Floyd that the bar stripped on very quickly, MIJ electronics, uncrowned frets, etc - but it was a tremendous step up from what I had.

Back then, though, there were few decent guitars below the $500 mark. And the ones that were that cheap, were closer to the Les Paul copy than the Fender than I bought. These days, I think you can get a decent beginner guitar for $250-$300 no problem. You'll be able to play it for a long time, and it will stay in tune and sound pretty good for a while.

Here's what I think the issue is - people claiming that a $200 guitar is just as good as a $2000 guitar.

These days, I'm probably not going to even pick up a guitar that's not MIA or MIJ, and probably not anything that retails for under $1000. Those are just not guitars that interest me. Is a Fender MIM 60's reissue a good guitar? Sure is. But I wouldn't spend my money on it. Is a Epiphone Dot a good guitar? Sure, but I'd rather have a Gibson 335. Have I played a Gibson 335 that was utter crap? Sure have. I wouldn't buy that one either.
 
Re: I'm Sorry Guys

Sadly, I do think it's simply the way things are.....consistent quality seems to cost more money. Sometimes we have had to learn that the hard (read : expensive) way, but that is a part of the journey from beginner to intermediate/ competent and possibly further. The ears and understanding of the instrument develop along with the time spent playing.

The problem is for beginners, parents of young learners, students and older players who have larger financial commitments, i.e. family, mortgage, kids expenses (schooling, clothing etc. etc.) ....in other words, those who have very limited funds to invest in music gear. Nowdays, there are plenty of cheap instruments that appear to have all the right appointments and look the business. It is, as is being mentioned all through this thread, a minefield sifting through all these low-priced instrument trying to find one that might be durable and last for a couple of years without causing the owner grief, and issues which they may not be aware of, and probably won't know how to deal with when they do discover it/them.

In the late 80's I was teaching at a music school, and if one of the students was thinking about buying a new instrument, I would tell them to find a few that they liked, and then I'd go with them to check out the ones they'd seen. I'd like to think that i saved a couple of them from buying something that was going to cause them problems along the track, and maybe steered them toward something that would keep them going for a couple of years without trouble.

It is not easy for someone with very limited funds to find good instruments, and I think it would be smart for them to try and find a more experienced player to go with them to the stores and take advantage of their more experienced eyes and ears in the quest to avoid buying a lemon. I think it is helpful if some of us make ourselves available to help others in cases like this, should we become aware of their desire to find a new instrument.

I'm also not sure whether saying 'you have to spend serious money to get a proper instrument', (even though it's largely true), is very helpful for those with limited funds. If you only had 2 or 3 hundred dollars to find an instrument and people start saying 'meh, you'll only get rubbish for that money', it must be a bit deflating for the budding player. Those with limited funds are already being overwhelmed by a smorgasbord of shiny, flashy instruments in their price-range, stuff that looks just like the gear their idols use, and no-one to give them a fair and honest appraisal of what those instruments may really be like behind the appearance.

Yeah, many of us have journeyed to the point where we own and play expensive instruments, but hey, let's not forget where we came from and that others are at that point and need help trying to find something decent in a sea of shiny poop, and they have very limited funds. They need our help more than they need to be told they haven't got a hope. And one thing we can do is lend them our experience in trying to find an instrument that will see them through the next phase of their development.

Just maybe it might behove us to try to understand and help, and remember that most of us began from a similar point, and if we had an instrument that we managed to learn on, it was quite likely luck that it didn't cause us too many problems. (Being a relic from the '70's, I gotta say that at least nowdays cheap instruments are probably better in many ways than the cheap instruments when i was young).

WELL SAID!

I currently teach music in the public school system in Michigan. I couldn't agree with you more...

That being said, I don't own any guitars that anyone around here would consider nice:

LTD M-100 (had it since 1999)

Fender 60s strat reissue MIJ

Jackson DKMG

Epiphone Les Paul Studio

Epiphone 58 V reissue

Dean VMNTX

With good setup work, all of these guitars are playable and almost all of them see work inside an elementary and a middle school every day.
 
Re: I'm Sorry Guys

i feel I must stick up for a some of the guitars in the LTD line. I have an LTD EC1000 that I got in 2003 and I must say it has spent far more time in my hands than my USA-made 1990 Gibson Explorer and early 90's ESP Horizon (with the ugly routing behind the trem) that I recently sold. Of course, the EC1K is of the deluxe line which I feel is an awesome "bang for the buck" line of guitars.

As for the LTD standard line I would never venture below the "4-500 level". I have a V500 that i've been very happy with for a couple of years now.

Now of course, LTD puts out some extremely budget guitars and yeah, in that instance you surely do get what you pay for and in the long term it's not cost-effective considering what you'd spend getting it to play right.
 
Re: I'm Sorry Guys

i feel I must stick up for a some of the guitars in the LTD line. I have an LTD EC1000 that I got in 2003 and I must say it has spent far more time in my hands than my USA-made 1990 Gibson Explorer and early 90's ESP Horizon (with the ugly routing behind the trem) that I recently sold. Of course, the EC1K is of the deluxe line which I feel is an awesome "bang for the buck" line of guitars.

As for the LTD standard line I would never venture below the "4-500 level". I have a V500 that i've been very happy with for a couple of years now.

Now of course, LTD puts out some extremely budget guitars and yeah, in that instance you surely do get what you pay for and in the long term it's not cost-effective considering what you'd spend getting it to play right.

I agree. I think LTD are very nice guitars when you go above the fray. They're every bit as nice as a Japanese Jackson in the same price ranges.
 
Re: I'm Sorry Guys

+50 on the ESP LTD series guitars. I have what I think is a pretty nice EC400 AT gold top. Granted, it's NOTHING like a nice Gibson Les Paul Gold Top but for my purposes it gets the job done.

I do agree with the original thread here that super cheapy instruments aren't particularly great when it comes to adjustments and how well they might play. I started back in 1989 on a Squier Bullet, which I didn't have for very long but it was just ok and not that great. It sucked for anything with distortion due to the single coil pickups. So I agree with the other comment in this thread that if you want to play high-gain stuff you shouldn't be buying a Strat or Tele with single coils. You might get away with a hotrails or HSS strat configuration though.

I have some instruments here that are made primarily overseas, and I like them for what they are. They tend to be in the MSRP range of $500-$700 guitars, and since I usually buy used stuff it doesn't hurt the wallet too much. If anything ever happened to them, (god forbid) I would probably be able to find a replacement given some searching for a few weeks or months. They may not be worth much, but I don't want to have the Nigel Tufnel syndrome where I've got guitars that are so old/vintage/sacred (whatever) that I don't touch, play, or even look at them. Any instrument I acquire is something I have for a reason. If I'm not connecting with it, the instrument is less than what i expected, or something isn't working out for whatever reason, it gets sold.

Specific to the other comment made in the original post, I do not consider myself a tech, a luthier, "guitar repair guy", or otherwise. I'll be the first to admit there are a lot of things I still don't know. I don't have a workbench or dedicated workspace, really it's just clear off my desk and use that for working on stuff. But I have always had an interest in electronics and how things work in general. So my perspective is more of a tinkerer's mindset. My brother and I used to take all sorts of electronic things apart when we were younger. We had a bunch of those old Radio Shack electronic project/fm radio kits in the 80's, so this sort of thing has always been around. Working on my guitars whether it's cleaning the frets, new strings, minor adjustments, or pickups/electronics is just something I enjoy.

-PT
 
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