Importance of capacitors on the tone pots?

[Lewguitar]

Re: Importance of capacitors on the tone pots?

I use Sprague Orange Drops because I want to be sure I'm getting the best tone...even if I can't hear any difference between an Orange Drop and a Hovland cap of the same value but a different composition.

But I wish people would stop theorizing and coming up with B*llsh*t answers.

Do this test:

Install a push/pull tone pot in your guitar that allows you to switch back and forth between two capacitors of differant composition but of the same value. Two .02 caps but one ceramic disc and one Sprague Orange Drop. Or two .02 caps of the same value but one a Hovland Oil N Foil and one a Sprague.

Then you can switch back and forth in REAL TIME and hear the difference (IF THERE IS ANY!) between the two.

Takes ALL the theorizing and guess work out of the picture and you'll finally KNOW what YOU hear as the diff...IF ANY!

I've done this test with Hovlands and Orange Drops...IMO, the diff is so tiny I don't know that I hear any difference at all.

But please: TRY IT FOR YOURSELF...it's what YOU hear that matters, not what I or anyone else hears. It's YOUR music!

Lew

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Importance of capacitors on the tone pots?

As for why there might be an audible diff between caps of the same value but of a differant composition in an amp's circuit and there might not be an audible diff in a guitar's circuit: The output of the tone cap in a guitar's circuit goes straight to ground...the highs that been allowed to bleed off when you turn down the tone control do not stay in the audio signal: they return to the planet Earth.

In an amplifier circuit, the signal that passes through the cap is more likely to stay in the audio circuit...so you're actually hearing it.

Lew

 

[Curly]

Re: Importance of capacitors on the tone pots?

I'll add a quote from amp guru Ken Fischer:

In chapter 2.1 I said, "Never use a ceramic disc as a tone cap in a guitar". Of course the question became what I should use? I don't know!!! O.K., I do know! (You guys, and gals are sharp)
First capacitors come in multitude of types, values, and voltages. The Sprague Black Beauty, also known as "bumble bee caps", are really great. Of course they don't make them any more.
I have heard that Gibson has had these caps made again for the 2003 Gibson Historics, but are not being as an aftermarket item. If you have a 50's Gibson, the .02 (really .022) Black Beauty was used. I used an old Fender value, Black Beauty in my Tele. It is a .047, (Fender calls for .05, which is for our purpose, the same thing). These caps were nicknamed Bumble Bee because they had color code bands around a black body. They look sort of like a giant Bumble bee.

Let's get to the important points of choosing a modern cap. First you want the correct value. Of course, feel free to try other values than traditional ones, if you are after something different. Most humbuckers use .022 (.020), and most single coils .05 (.047). You want separate film foil, not metallized types. Mylar and polyester film works better then polypropylene film.
Since pickups put out very low voltage, the voltage rating should not matter, but it does seem to have an affect. Traditional voltage values are commonly, but not always, 200 or 400 volt ratings.
The Black Beauty caps used in old guitars were typically the 400 volt type. Another interesting point is that, if you reverse the cap end to end, it will sound different in use. I jump mine in with test clips, run the tone control through its range, and use directions my ear choose. Also, if you have many of the same type, try a bunch of them. They will vary slightly from cap to cap. It's worth the time to choose one you really like with your gear.

 

[Kent S.]

Re: Importance of capacitors on the tone pots?

I use Sprague Orange Drops because I want to be sure I'm getting the best tone...even if I can't hear any difference between an Orange Drop and a Hovland cap of the same value but a different composition.

But I wish people would stop theorizing and coming up with B*llsh*t answers.

Do this test:

Install a push/pull tone pot in your guitar that allows you to switch back and forth between two capacitors of differant composition but of the same value. Two .02 caps but one ceramic disc and one Sprague Orange Drop. Or two .02 caps of the same value but one a Hovland Oil N Foil and one a Sprague.

Then you can switch back and forth in REAL TIME and hear the difference (IF THERE IS ANY!) between the two.

Takes ALL the theorizing and guess work out of the picture and you'll finally KNOW what YOU hear as the diff...IF ANY!

I've done this test with Hovlands and Orange Drops...IMO, the diff is so tiny I don't know that I hear any difference at all.

But please: TRY IT FOR YOURSELF...it's what YOU hear that matters, not what I or anyone else hears. It's YOUR music!

Lew

No BS Lew, just the facts ... there are differences that show up ... 100% across the board ...Nah, but they do sometimes, why ? I don't know (I'm only referring to cases in which the actual cap. value of the two caps was the same). Why is that so, and in some cases it is, and in others it isn't ... I couldn't tell ya, as I've found no reason for it ... nonetheless it does happen. Something to be worried about when picking a cap ... I think not. However, I do think that the higher voltage rated caps. hold truer to their cap. value and sound better after soldering ... better resistance to the effects of heat, and capacitance drift from it ...short story, they are more of what you bought to begin with, without someone's soldering technique giving one something else. Lew, I've been rather nit-picky over this subject, it's just that I want people to know that there can be a difference in cap types ...for whatever reason ... and I'd love to know what that reason,or reason's are, because it's driving me batty ... :laugh2:

 

[Kent S.]

Re: Importance of capacitors on the tone pots?

As for why there might be an audible diff between caps of the same value but of a differant composition in an amp's circuit and there might not be an audible diff in a guitar's circuit: The output of the tone cap in a guitar's circuit goes straight to ground...the highs that been allowed to bleed off when you turn down the tone control do not stay in the audio signal: they return to the planet Earth.

In an amplifier circuit, the signal that passes through the cap is more likely to stay in the audio circuit...so you're actually hearing it.

Lew

And I do agree with this 100% ... just so you know ... like I said, I'd love to know why, sometimes it makes a difference, and sometimes not ... It is a subtle difference ... and it shouldn't be there at all ... :saeek:

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Importance of capacitors on the tone pots?

I'm convinced people are fooling themselves....because I DID.

I pulled the .02 Orange Drop out of my '92 Hamer (Duncan Seth & CC pickups) and reinstalled a .02 Hovland. I was "amazed" at the improvement in tone I heard and even posted about it here.

Then I decided to see if I was BSing myself so I installed the switch I described.

The two caps sound virtually identical switching back and forth between them in real time!

I believe it is impossible to remember what one cap sounds like unless you can make the switch in a nano-second. Making the switch with alligator clips takes to long...and you'll fool yourself.

I found that just the sound of the click of the push/pull switch is enough to fool yourself, because I've demonstrated this guitar with the push/pull tone cap switching switch to a few people and was able to get them to say they heard a diff between the two caps, when actually I just made the clicking sound but didn't allow the switch to make the actual switch!

Lew

Lew

 

[Curly]

Re: Importance of capacitors on the tone pots?

I'd love to know why, sometimes it makes a difference, and sometimes not ... It is a subtle difference ... and it shouldn't be there at all ... :saeek:

Kent ...
if you take a look at the Ken Fischer quote, he said the direction of the cap made a difference! That was the first time I'd read that! He actually says he tests the cap with test leads to find the best sound.

your comment about the voltage is kind of interesting - I have 100V caps, but Fischer recommends 400V, and I'm kind of curious if the extra mass makes a difference

I use the Orange Drops because I've heard an audible improvement over disc caps - the OD's add resonance, and the disc caps are known for their flat response

I've found what works for me, but I won't argue with those who want to use expensive caps if they feel it helps

the fact is, most of us don't have capacitance meters, so - for better or worse - we have to use our ears! :sad:

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Importance of capacitors on the tone pots?

Kent ...
if you take a look at the Ken Fischer quote, he said the direction of the cap made a difference! That was the first time I'd read that! He actually says he tests the cap with test leads to find the best sound.

your comment about the voltage is kind of interesting - I have 100V caps, but Fischer recommends 400V, and I'm kind of curious if the extra mass makes a difference

I use the Orange Drops because I've heard an audible improvement over disc caps - the OD's add resonance, and the disc caps are known for their flat response

I've found what works for me, but I won't argue with those who want to use expensive caps if they feel it helps

the fact is, most of us don't have capacitance meters, so - for better or worse - we have to use our ears! :sad:

Hi Curly, If you look at your Orange Drop caps (or most caps other than ceramic disc) you'll notice a black line on one end....that's the end that should go to ground. In an amp's circuitry, when a cap is used as a coupling cap you'd always have the end with the black line connected to the next stage...helps in preventing DC from leaking backwards back into the cap from the next amplification stage. Maybe someone more technical than me can explain this further... Lew

 

[Kent S.]

Re: Importance of capacitors on the tone pots?

Kent ...
if you take a look at the Ken Fischer quote, he said the direction of the cap made a difference! That was the first time I'd read that! He actually says he tests the cap with test leads to find the best sound.

your comment about the voltage is kind of interesting - I have 100V caps, but Fischer recommends 400V, and I'm kind of curious if the extra mass makes a difference

I use the Orange Drops because I've heard an audible improvement over disc caps - the OD's add resonance, and the disc caps are known for their flat response

I've found what works for me, but I won't argue with those who want to use expensive caps if they feel it helps

the fact is, most of us don't have capacitance meters, so - for better or worse - we have to use our ears! :sad:

I thought that comment was in referrence specifically to the Bumble Bee caps, in those old LP's (the one about the direction effecting the tone), on the second point I would only stand to guess that the larger mass, makes the cap *tougher* against the effects of the heat in the soldereing process, although in an amplifier over rating the voltage of the cap, may lower it's ESR, a bit, there by improving it's performance ... don't know? Stands to reason though. Ken also said that ceratin types of caps resonate better, could be, but the resonance amount is directly related to the resistance in the circuit, as soon as that tone knob starts being turned up, the resistance of the control starts to damp the resonant boost, the the effect is only realized mostly at the tone controls extreme (0). The lower ESR of a cap would suggest that it would resonate better (less overall resistance).
Some people claim that whether you hook up the cap and the control makes a difference (signal>cap.>pot>ground; or signal>pot>cap.> ground). I've never experiemented with it, so I couldn't say, maybe it does, and maybe it doesn't. I couldn't say myself one way or the other, if someone hears a difference, great, if not, well that's cool too.

 

[Kent S.]

Re: Importance of capacitors on the tone pots?

Hi Curly, If you look at your Orange Drop caps (or most caps other than ceramic disc) you'll notice a black line on one end....that's the end that should go to ground. In an amp's circuitry, when a cap is used as a coupling cap you'd always have the end with the black line connected to the next stage...helps in preventing DC from leaking backwards back into the cap from the next amplification stage. Maybe someone more technical than me can explain this further... Lew

Lew is dead on with this, that line marks the *outer* wrap of the foil plate in the cap. The basic idea is that by connected it to ground (or the point of lower potential), any noise picked up by the cap gets shunted to ground, in essence it becomes the caps *shield*. Not sure which way the cap would be connected as far as amp stages, convention would state that it would follow the path of the DC current, again shunting any picked up noise to ground, hence it's outer end being placed there. That's a topic for Bruce ...

 

[Curly]

Re: Importance of capacitors on the tone pots?

If you look at your Orange Drop caps (or most caps other than ceramic disc) you'll notice a black line on one end....that's the end that should go to ground.

Lew,
I looked at several OD's, and didn't see a mark ....here's a pic from Hoffman's site:
caps

maybe they're oriented the same direction as the electrolytics, in relation to the writing?

hmmmmmm....

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Importance of capacitors on the tone pots?

Lew,
I looked at several OD's, and didn't see a mark ....here's a pic from Hoffman's site:
caps

maybe they're oriented the same direction as the electrolytics, in relation to the writing?

hmmmmmm....

You appear to be right about that...tho I do have quite a few Orange Drops with the black line on one end. See those electrolytic caps in the link you provided? The ones labeled 50 volts? They have a dimple on the end marked ++++++ and a row of arrows pointing towards the other end, which would go to ground. Those marks are the orientation guides for those caps. Maybe it's less important with Orange Drops? Lew

 

[Curly]

Re: Importance of capacitors on the tone pots?

thanks, Lew

I pulled out Bruce's schematic and looked at a 5E3 board I built, and made the same assumption

I know direction is critical for the electrolytics, but I'll pay attention to the OD direction next time and see if it makes a difference ..

learn something every day! :sad:

 

[STRATDELUXER97]

Re: Importance of capacitors on the tone pots?

Lew,
I looked at several OD's, and didn't see a mark ....here's a pic from Hoffman's site:
caps

maybe they're oriented the same direction as the electrolytics, in relation to the writing?

hmmmmmm....

I have seen those little black lines on the original ODs that weren't the Vishay brand we get currently...The more recent 715 and 716 series I've been buying don't have those lines...When I recap an amp I'm always pretty anal about having all writing on the caps facing the same way...On a BF Fender for instance,the writing faces towards the middle of the board..I'm not sure if I actually have the ODs in the right way then,but the amp(s) sound great so I assume so? :13: :burnout:

I have to agree and have Lew's back on caps in guitars in that I have done the switch scenario in one of my strats using the Orange Drop caps,Xicons,Mallory 150s, Cornel Dublier(CDE caps),and the Hovland...Honestly I feel there's a placebo or physcological effect where you automatically fixate on the more expensive cap..You tell yourself that the more expensive cap or this brand cap sounds better because you bias that way..In a guitar amp circuit I favor certain brand and cap types for a Marshall vs a Fender recap and I do hear subtle differences..In parts of either circuit I Might mix and match in my Marshall or Fender amps...In a guitar circuit where you're basically always removing highs or "shunting" highend to ground,I just don't hear any difference among good quality caps...I Like the Xicon caps because they take up less space in my guitars...This stuff is way too subjective and I have to agree with Curly in that it's "your tone" in the end that matters and not anyone else's opinions.. :13:

John

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Importance of capacitors on the tone pots?

I have seen those little black lines on the original ODs that weren't the Vishay brand we get currently...The more recent 715 and 716 series I've been buying don't have those lines...When I recap an amp I'm always pretty anal about having all writing on the caps facing the same way...On a BF Fender for instance,the writing faces towards the middle of the board..I'm not sure if I actually have the ODs in the right way then,but the amp(s) sound great so I assume so? :13: :burnout:

I have to agree and have Lew's back on caps in guitars in that I have done the switch scenario in one of my strats using the Orange Drop caps,Xicons,Mallory 150s, Cornel Dublier(CDE caps),and the Hovland...Honestly I feel there's a placebo or physcological effect where you automatically fixate on the more expensive cap..You tell yourself that the more expensive cap or this brand cap sounds better because you bias that way..In a guitar amp circuit I favor certain brand and cap types for a Marshall vs a Fender recap and I do hear subtle differences..In parts of either circuit I Might mix and match in my Marshall or Fender amps...In a guitar circuit where you're basically always removing highs or "shunting" highend to ground,I just don't hear any difference among good quality caps...I Like the Xicon caps because they take up less space in my guitars...This stuff is way too subjective and I have to agree with Curly in that it's "your tone" in the end that matters and not anyone else's opinions.. :13:

John

My brother Bruce (http://www.missionamps.com) uses those Xicons alot. He likes the way they sound. I think the Mallory 150's have the warmest tone...the Orange Drops have the clearest tone...the Xicons are right in the middle. But that's in an amp...like John, I don't hear much diff in a guitar.

In an amp, I've used Mallory 150's to warm up an overly bright and edgey sounding vintage Deluxe Reverb and Orange Drops to stiffen up some tweed and brownface amps.

It's a subtle diff but there is a subtle diff in tone between the three.

 

[STRATDELUXER97]

Re: Importance of capacitors on the tone pots?

My brother Bruce (http://www.missionamps.com) uses those Xicons alot. He likes the way they sound. I think the Mallory 150's have the warmest tone...the Orange Drops have the clearest tone...the Xicons are right in the middle. But that's in an amp...like John, I don't hear much diff in a guitar.

In an amp, I've used Mallory 150's to warm up an overly bright and edgey sounding vintage Deluxe Reverb and Orange Drops to stiffen up some tweed and brownface amps.

It's a subtle diff but there is a subtle diff in tone between the three.

Lew...Doug Hoffman turned me on to the Xicons...I used to stand over him while he was building his amps...I Like the Mallory 150 caps alot also and they look great on the board,especially on an old ptp Marshall board..I Keep many different brands of caps and values and voltage ratings here at home so I can experiment... :smack: I think the biggest change I see is that I'm probably going deaf from the loud Classic Rock music we play!

John