Intonation issue

[AWhitaker]

I've intonated my guitars many times without any issues, but I never had to adjust the truss rod.
Always at the bridge.

Recently, I took apart and modified a couple guitars (new tuners, and a replaced tone pot on the guitar in question)

After reassembling it, and puting some fresh strings on (same as I've always used), I was checking the intonation.

It's never needed tweaking since I set it up the first time over a year ago, but now I've run into an issue. The top half of the frets (about 8-22) are all flat while the bottom half are all sharp..

Does this mean I need to adjust the truss rod? In what way?
Been far too long since I've learned about this stuff, and I can't seem to fine a similar scenario online.

 

[Silence Kid]

Re: Intonation issue

No truss rod adjustment; the saddles if anything. I wonder if magnetic pull from the pickups is affecting the strings.

 

[ErikH]

Re: Intonation issue

You could have too much relief. That can affect intonation a little. Check the relief and tighten the truss rod if necessary, but only in 1/4 turn increments. Let it sit for a while to settle and then come back to it. With the relief set, check intonation and adjust the saddles. How are the frets? What brand of strings? How are the nut slots?

 

[Silence Kid]

Re: Intonation issue

It would affect intonation somewhat, but if his relief is already fine I would never mess with it to fix an intonation issue. I think you touched on it when you said "measure the relief first" but just making sure before anyone just gets cranking...

I'd suspect other factors (ex. string pull, nut slots, saddle height getting bumped) before I'd account for the amt. of change neck relief would affect to the intonation.

 

[ErikH]

Re: Intonation issue

I added "if necessary" to my statement.

We also don't know how much off the intonation is. But yes, other factors could be contributing first but since things are being checked, may as well do a complete setup. I was just implying that the TR "could" be a factor but not it soley.

My first thought would be the strings. I've had issues with DR strings in the past with not intonating. Curious what brand the OP uses.

 

[ehdwuld]

Re: Intonation issue

You could have too much relief. That can affect intonation a little. Check the relief and tighten the truss rod if necessary, but only in 1/4 turn increments. Let it sit for a while to settle and then come back to it. With the relief set, check intonation and adjust the saddles. How are the frets? What brand of strings? How are the nut slots?

This
Neck off with no tension
Let it settle in

 

[Wattage]

Re: Intonation issue

you got the neck put back on at the right angle?

 

[RorySquier]

Re: Intonation issue

I agree the truss rod adjustment affect the intonation. There are many factors. Adjustment of the bridge saddles and using a digital meter for tuning is also key. I have an LG smartphone with an app I downloaded for guitar tuning. It's called "Da Tuner" and I highly recommend this app to anyone. It's very accurate an easy to use. I use it to set up the intonation of all my guitars...it works perfect!



;>)/

 

[AWhitaker]

Re: Intonation issue

You could have too much relief. That can affect intonation a little. Check the relief and tighten the truss rod if necessary, but only in 1/4 turn increments. Let it sit for a while to settle and then come back to it. With the relief set, check intonation and adjust the saddles. How are the frets? What brand of strings? How are the nut slots?

The frets are a little old, but they're still even. The strings are Cobolt 9-42's (only one brand makes them, as far as I know so I've always used them). The nut slots fine. I used a ruler made for the tiny measurements needed for guitar to check the height of the strings.

I think the neck is a bit more curved than I remember. It has been sitting a while without strings (I broke a drill bit and it's a long drive to the hardware store. I waited for when my work brought me to town at the right time).

 

[AWhitaker]

Re: Intonation issue

It would affect intonation somewhat, but if his relief is already fine I would never mess with it to fix an intonation issue. I think you touched on it when you said "measure the relief first" but just making sure before anyone just gets cranking...

I'd suspect other factors (ex. string pull, nut slots, saddle height getting bumped) before I'd account for the amt. of change neck relief would affect to the intonation.

Well, I think the neck has moved. I've had it stringless for a while now (half a month). I broke the drillbor I had for the screw holes (it fell on the floor and I stepped on it before I even realized what happened). I work early morning too, so it was a while before I could get to a hardware store without making an extra trip to town.

 

[AWhitaker]

Re: Intonation issue

I added "if necessary" to my statement.

We also don't know how much off the intonation is. But yes, other factors could be contributing first but since things are being checked, may as well do a complete setup. I was just implying that the TR "could" be a factor but not it soley.

My first thought would be the strings. I've had issues with DR strings in the past with not intonating. Curious what brand the OP uses.

Earnieball slinky cobolt 9-42's. I've always used these for standard tuning because they have a warm, yet powerful sound when the gain and bass are up. Makes some nice, even sounding chords.

And of course I'm doing a setup. I always check everything before I restring. First time it's needed more than a tiny twist of a screw or graphite in the nut (I've got some pure graphite powder that works wonders)

I always check with more experienced people before I do anything serious, which is why I'm here. You guys are great help with this stuff.

 

[AWhitaker]

Re: Intonation issue

you got the neck put back on at the right angle?

It's a gretsch g5438
The neck is connected, so no worries there. good thinking though. I'm sure that would be Frustrating for a strat or something.

 

[AWhitaker]

Re: Intonation issue

I agree the truss rod adjustment affect the intonation. There are many factors. Adjustment of the bridge saddles and using a digital meter for tuning is also key. I have an LG smartphone with an app I downloaded for guitar tuning. It's called "Da Tuner" and I highly recommend this app to anyone. It's very accurate an easy to use. I use it to set up the intonation of all my guitars...it works perfect!


;>)/

I've seen that app! It's great.
I've found one comparable for iPhone called iStroboSoft. It's more accurate than a couple of the pedalboard tuners I've tried in the past, shockingly enough.

 

[Liko]

Re: Intonation issue

I've intonated my guitars many times without any issues, but I never had to adjust the truss rod.
Always at the bridge.

Recently, I took apart and modified a couple guitars (new tuners, and a replaced tone pot on the guitar in question)

After reassembling it, and puting some fresh strings on (same as I've always used), I was checking the intonation.

It's never needed tweaking since I set it up the first time over a year ago, but now I've run into an issue. The top half of the frets (about 8-22) are all flat while the bottom half are all sharp..

Does this mean I need to adjust the truss rod? In what way?
Been far too long since I've learned about this stuff, and I can't seem to fine a similar scenario online.

Two things. First, check your string/saddle height. A bridge that is too high increases the speaking length of the string at a particular fret, which lets the notes go flat as you move up the fretboard. It's a balancing act; fretboard progressions are measured out to account for the change in speaking length and string tension when fretting a string at each particular fret, but that's based on a "standard" bridge height; too far away and the calculations don't work.

Also, in the lower octave, check your fretting hand pressure. You may be pulling the pitch sharp by pressing the string down into the space between frets. This is more likely on guitars with tall frets, especially when strung with lighter-gauge strings, and it's more prevalent in the lower octave since the wider fret spacing allows the string to bend down to the fretboard more easily. Smaller "vintage" fretwire provides less room to bend the pitch, while thicker string gauges make it harder to bend the note over the fret.

 

[ErikH]

Re: Intonation issue

Here's an oddity that I ran in to last night while setting up my new Dean ML. I had just restrung it with Ernie Ball Regular Slinkys and was checking the intonation after getting the action where I like it. It was going good until the D string. It was way flat from the 12th fret up. I adjusted the saddle, still flat. Adjusted a little more, still flat. Then I remembered something that happened several years back when I was working on one of my Strats. So I turned off the ceiling fan not too far away. Bingo, intonation was a lot closer. Made a slight tweak and done. Yeah, I had forgotten at first I ran in to this same situation. The ceiling fan shoving the air around messes with the string vibrations causing them to warble out of tune. I've had this happen in the front room where I practice with the fan on. Strike a note and you can hear a vibrato affect.

 

[AWhitaker]

Re: Intonation issue

Two things. First, check your string/saddle height. A bridge that is too high increases the speaking length of the string at a particular fret, which lets the notes go flat as you move up the fretboard. It's a balancing act; fretboard progressions are measured out to account for the change in speaking length and string tension when fretting a string at each particular fret, but that's based on a "standard" bridge height; too far away and the calculations don't work.

Also, in the lower octave, check your fretting hand pressure. You may be pulling the pitch sharp by pressing the string down into the space between frets. This is more likely on guitars with tall frets, especially when strung with lighter-gauge strings, and it's more prevalent in the lower octave since the wider fret spacing allows the string to bend down to the fretboard more easily. Smaller "vintage" fretwire provides less room to bend the pitch, while thicker string gauges make it harder to bend the note over the fret.

I actually like a low action, so the bridge heights definitely not too high.
Also, I have a light touch, which is probably why I never break strings. Pressing too hard slows me down when I wanna play faster, so as long as it doesn't buzz I'm good.

 

[AWhitaker]

Re: Intonation issue

Here's an oddity that I ran in to last night while setting up my new Dean ML. I had just restrung it with Ernie Ball Regular Slinkys and was checking the intonation after getting the action where I like it. It was going good until the D string. It was way flat from the 12th fret up. I adjusted the saddle, still flat. Adjusted a little more, still flat. Then I remembered something that happened several years back when I was working on one of my Strats. So I turned off the ceiling fan not too far away. Bingo, intonation was a lot closer. Made a slight tweak and done. Yeah, I had forgotten at first I ran in to this same situation. The ceiling fan shoving the air around messes with the string vibrations causing them to warble out of tune. I've had this happen in the front room where I practice with the fan on. Strike a note and you can hear a vibrato affect.

So I'm not crazy.. haven't played guitar near a fan or window for at least two years now because I always felt like it was going out of tune on me. I thought I had just been paranoid about it this whole time haha



Anyway, for those that care to know, I've lowered the bridge a bit and adjusted saddles a lot. I've check the frets and the nut and even pickup height. The only thing I can think of is the truss rod.. so, I've adjusted it a quarter turn tighter to see if that helps.