astrozombie
KatyPerryologist
Holy **** this thing kicks ass! it's a pumpy humbucker sound thats much more defined and cleans up great!
Invader in Parallel!
- Thread starter astrozombie
- Start date
anewdefguitarist
New member
Re: Invader in Parallel!
my distortions the same way man!!
my distortions the same way man!!
V
Varg
Guest
Re: Invader in Parallel!
Would an Invader in parallel work in a Les Paul?
Would an Invader in parallel work in a Les Paul?
astrozombie
KatyPerryologist
Re: Invader in Parallel!
PARALLEL WIRING
Parallel wiring connects the coils of a humbucker like two independently functioning single coils.
The result is a brighter, more single-coil like tone but without losing hum-canceling. A humbucker wired
in parallel has about 30% less output of the same pickup wired in series.
While coil splitting and parallel wiring sound very similar to most players, there are some differences. One difference is output. Splitting a 16k ohm DC resistance humbucker results in an 8k ohm single coil and that translates into a -3 db lowering in output. Wiring a 16k ohm DC resistance humbucker in parallel results in a 4k ohm DC resistance and a -6 db lowering in output.
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16k humbucker - 30% = 11.something humbucker. That I can understand.
what i don't understand is the 2nd paragraph. it goes against what the first one states. These are both from SD by the way.
PARALLEL WIRING
Parallel wiring connects the coils of a humbucker like two independently functioning single coils.
The result is a brighter, more single-coil like tone but without losing hum-canceling. A humbucker wired
in parallel has about 30% less output of the same pickup wired in series.
While coil splitting and parallel wiring sound very similar to most players, there are some differences. One difference is output. Splitting a 16k ohm DC resistance humbucker results in an 8k ohm single coil and that translates into a -3 db lowering in output. Wiring a 16k ohm DC resistance humbucker in parallel results in a 4k ohm DC resistance and a -6 db lowering in output.
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16k humbucker - 30% = 11.something humbucker. That I can understand.
what i don't understand is the 2nd paragraph. it goes against what the first one states. These are both from SD by the way.
super rad stuff
Skaforlifeologist
Re: Invader in Parallel!
^that first paragraph should say "about 30% of the output".
^that first paragraph should say "about 30% of the output".
astrozombie
KatyPerryologist
Re: Invader in Parallel!
I'm having a really hard time believing its a 4k humbucker. unless this is one of those times when dc means nothing.
it sounds like its at least 8k
I'm having a really hard time believing its a 4k humbucker. unless this is one of those times when dc means nothing.
it sounds like its at least 8k
Re: Invader in Parallel!
It could be that I have the simulation wrong, but this doesn't hold up when I run some simulations in SPICE. Per SPICE, both wiring to coils in parallel and coil cut results in a -6dB output loss, and furthermore, no change in the frequency or size of the resonant peak.
Either way, both have less output than a series wired humbucker.
It could be that I have the simulation wrong, but this doesn't hold up when I run some simulations in SPICE. Per SPICE, both wiring to coils in parallel and coil cut results in a -6dB output loss, and furthermore, no change in the frequency or size of the resonant peak.
Either way, both have less output than a series wired humbucker.
F
Funkfingers
Guest
Re: Invader in Parallel!
Yeah, somebody is trying to correlate DC resistance values with deciBel figures.
The arithmetic formula for parallel resistance looks like this;
1/8 + 1/8 = 2/8 (i.e. equates to 1/4)
Yeah, somebody is trying to correlate DC resistance values with deciBel figures.
The arithmetic formula for parallel resistance looks like this;
1/8 + 1/8 = 2/8 (i.e. equates to 1/4)
Artie
Peaveyologist
Re: Invader in Parallel!
This part is not correct. When you measure two coils in parallel, the ohms-to-voltage concept goes out the window. Think of it like this: Two AA cells in series gives 3 volts. One AA cell gives 1.5 volts. Two AA cells in parallel still gives 1.5 volts. You can't measure the output voltage of a generator, (which a pickup is), using ohms. The output voltage of each generator remains the same, but you now have twice the current capability. The pickup will become less sensitive to loading. I.e., less sensitive to a 250k pot vs a 500k pot.
The output of a humbucker split, or in parallel, is virtually identical. You may lose a micro amount due to minute phase cancellations due to the slight offset of one coil to the other.
This part is not correct. When you measure two coils in parallel, the ohms-to-voltage concept goes out the window. Think of it like this: Two AA cells in series gives 3 volts. One AA cell gives 1.5 volts. Two AA cells in parallel still gives 1.5 volts. You can't measure the output voltage of a generator, (which a pickup is), using ohms. The output voltage of each generator remains the same, but you now have twice the current capability. The pickup will become less sensitive to loading. I.e., less sensitive to a 250k pot vs a 500k pot.
The output of a humbucker split, or in parallel, is virtually identical. You may lose a micro amount due to minute phase cancellations due to the slight offset of one coil to the other.
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Re: Invader in Parallel!
Seems like there's something up with your simulation. Series to single should cut the inductance in half, and single to parallel should cut it in half again, both of which will noticeably affect the resonant peak.
People like to quote the resistance values, since they are easily measured and listed in the specs, but the inductance is what's really affecting the tone when you change the configuration.
Seems like there's something up with your simulation. Series to single should cut the inductance in half, and single to parallel should cut it in half again, both of which will noticeably affect the resonant peak.
People like to quote the resistance values, since they are easily measured and listed in the specs, but the inductance is what's really affecting the tone when you change the configuration.
Artie
Peaveyologist
Re: Invader in Parallel!
No, you aren't wrong. And I wasn't completely clear in my answer. There's a difference in db loss voltage-wise and power-wise. Your simulation is correct for voltage. -6db is half the voltage. But your correlation to DC resistance implied 1/4th.
Ergo, split and parallel result in approximately half of the voltage output from series, as opposed to, full, 1/2, 1/4 for series, split, parallel respectively.
Make sense?
No, you aren't wrong. And I wasn't completely clear in my answer. There's a difference in db loss voltage-wise and power-wise. Your simulation is correct for voltage. -6db is half the voltage. But your correlation to DC resistance implied 1/4th.
Ergo, split and parallel result in approximately half of the voltage output from series, as opposed to, full, 1/2, 1/4 for series, split, parallel respectively.
Make sense?
astrozombie
KatyPerryologist
Re: Invader in Parallel!
Maybe I'm slow... but your saying that Parallel is the same output as split, which is half?
16k series is
8 split
and also 8 parallel?
No, you aren't wrong. And I wasn't completely clear in my answer. There's a difference in db loss voltage-wise and power-wise. Your simulation is correct for voltage. -6db is half the voltage. But your correlation to DC resistance implied 1/4th.
Ergo, split and parallel result in approximately half of the voltage output from series, as opposed to, full, 1/2, 1/4 for series, split, parallel respectively.
Make sense?
Maybe I'm slow... but your saying that Parallel is the same output as split, which is half?
16k series is
8 split
and also 8 parallel?
Artie
Peaveyologist
Re: Invader in Parallel!
Yes and no. "Yes" to the voltage output. Split and parallel yield the same output voltage.
"No" to the correlation between resistance readings. Your meter applies a voltage to the circuit. The circuit divides the meter voltage between two paths, thus dividing the reading. If this was a "load" to a power supply, that reading would be valid. But its not. You're measuring two voltage sources.
Try reading the resistance of two batteries. Then derive a voltage output from those readings. You'll be wrong.
Split and parallel yield the same voltage when talking about pickups.
Yes and no. "Yes" to the voltage output. Split and parallel yield the same output voltage.
"No" to the correlation between resistance readings. Your meter applies a voltage to the circuit. The circuit divides the meter voltage between two paths, thus dividing the reading. If this was a "load" to a power supply, that reading would be valid. But its not. You're measuring two voltage sources.
Try reading the resistance of two batteries. Then derive a voltage output from those readings. You'll be wrong.
Split and parallel yield the same voltage when talking about pickups.
Re: Invader in Parallel!
I don't think the simulation is wrong in that regard.
With the coils in series, you have .5X capacitance, where X is the capacitance of one coil. Capacitors sum by their recipricol when in series, like resistors do in parallel. So w/ coil cut the inductance halves, but the capacitance doubles. In parallel, the inductance drops by half again, and the capacitance doubles again because now the capacitance of each coil sums in parallel.
So w/ the capacitance and inductance changing by the same proportion, should that not keep the same resonant peak?
I don't think the simulation is wrong in that regard.
With the coils in series, you have .5X capacitance, where X is the capacitance of one coil. Capacitors sum by their recipricol when in series, like resistors do in parallel. So w/ coil cut the inductance halves, but the capacitance doubles. In parallel, the inductance drops by half again, and the capacitance doubles again because now the capacitance of each coil sums in parallel.
So w/ the capacitance and inductance changing by the same proportion, should that not keep the same resonant peak?
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astrozombie
KatyPerryologist
Re: Invader in Parallel!
most of this is flying so hard over my head, you have to be careful to not smack an airplane.
here's what I'm most interested in: perceived output. how "hot" a pick up is. in that sense, how can we devide series, split and parallel?
most of this is flying so hard over my head, you have to be careful to not smack an airplane.
here's what I'm most interested in: perceived output. how "hot" a pick up is. in that sense, how can we devide series, split and parallel?
Re: Invader in Parallel!
Having not done enough in depth personal comparison of parallel vs coil cut, I can't speak to which one is more likely to be perceived as hotter. However, series should definitely sound and feel hotter than coil cut or parallel, because it is. Parallel should sound a little brighter than coil cut, because parallel will be less loaded down by the volume and tone controls and the cable, and thus suffer less treble loss as a result.
Having not done enough in depth personal comparison of parallel vs coil cut, I can't speak to which one is more likely to be perceived as hotter. However, series should definitely sound and feel hotter than coil cut or parallel, because it is. Parallel should sound a little brighter than coil cut, because parallel will be less loaded down by the volume and tone controls and the cable, and thus suffer less treble loss as a result.
ParameterMan
New member
Re: Invader in Parallel!
Ok, I'll bite. Coils have inductance, resistance, and also generate juice. Note that resistance does not indicate output in a pickup - number of turns countered by coil resistance does. A huge coil of large diameter wire(low resistance per foot) will have much more output than a coil wound the same number of turns with a smaller wire. This is assuming one can create a large magnet structure that saturates the whole coil. Magnetic field strength drops off exponentially with distance.
So with two equal coils in parallel, the total resistance will be half that of one coil. The inductance will be lowered. The coils see each other as both a resistive and inductive load, reducing the total output and midrange a bit. The result will be slightly less voltage swing than one coil but more current flow and lower output impedance. This allows it to drive loads such as the volume and tone controls more efficiently.
By personal experience: split is ~60% of series, and parallel is slightly below that. As far as resonant peak goes, split sounds about like what one would expect from half the humbucker; parallel changes the treble and response to something quite different. It's like the difference between the single and notch positions on a strat.
Ok, I'll bite. Coils have inductance, resistance, and also generate juice. Note that resistance does not indicate output in a pickup - number of turns countered by coil resistance does. A huge coil of large diameter wire(low resistance per foot) will have much more output than a coil wound the same number of turns with a smaller wire. This is assuming one can create a large magnet structure that saturates the whole coil. Magnetic field strength drops off exponentially with distance.
So with two equal coils in parallel, the total resistance will be half that of one coil. The inductance will be lowered. The coils see each other as both a resistive and inductive load, reducing the total output and midrange a bit. The result will be slightly less voltage swing than one coil but more current flow and lower output impedance. This allows it to drive loads such as the volume and tone controls more efficiently.
By personal experience: split is ~60% of series, and parallel is slightly below that. As far as resonant peak goes, split sounds about like what one would expect from half the humbucker; parallel changes the treble and response to something quite different. It's like the difference between the single and notch positions on a strat.
Re: Invader in Parallel!
That's true for the pickup by itself, but there is additional capacitance from the tone control, cable, and amplifier input that will show up in parallel to the pickup capacitance. If you include these then the resonant peak should change because the total capacitance change will no longer exactly balance out the inductance change. Take a look at this guy's web page and see how it compares to your pspice model. http://terrydownsmusic.com/technotes/guitarcables/guitarcables.htm
That's true for the pickup by itself, but there is additional capacitance from the tone control, cable, and amplifier input that will show up in parallel to the pickup capacitance. If you include these then the resonant peak should change because the total capacitance change will no longer exactly balance out the inductance change. Take a look at this guy's web page and see how it compares to your pspice model. http://terrydownsmusic.com/technotes/guitarcables/guitarcables.htm
