Is Gibson Typecast?

Re: Is Gibson Typecast?

IMO threads like this or rather the comments contained therein are one big ****ing Joke that give luthiers and guitar companies a reason to sit back, laugh their ass off ath today´s average idiot, and say "We´re doing everything exactly the way we should be, stay the course." ;)

Just for the record—maybe you're already aware of this, but it bears repeating—I have no intention of bashing Gibson. I'm merely making an observation about the Gibson-buying public. As stated early on by myself and someone else, the same could be said of the Fender-buying public as well. Typecasting is a sociological phenomenon much more than it is the result of bad business practices.

Also for the record, my #1 is a Gibby. :)

- Keith
 
Re: Is Gibson Typecast?

Zerb - I am an examiner for a Baldrige quality program. I can sit down and list a dozen things off of the top of my head that Gibson has done that are just un-defensible. And I'd love to know what they cost...

There is no excuse period for a company to not know what the customer wants. The number of classic only players that are offended by Gibson's actions is obvious. The number of 'new' designs that are not embraced is obvious. When I was applting for the President of Gibson North America there was an advertisement for the new Explorer 7 string. Nice try...but a DECADE too late.

In a 'niche' market you have to be 10x more careful. You can't afford to put out a bunch of junk and hope it sells. Hell - the advertising for the shark think probably cost more than the guitar sold.

But - the proof is in the books. Gibson is a for profit company. We can sit down (or should be able to with all of the MBA/CPA etc's they seem to require) and see where the money is going, what is a winner and what is a loser.

I can run a focus group for 5 grand and turn it into $5M in value added features on a guitar. How much has Gibson WASTED on FAIL.

I know being innovative is a risk - but there is a difference between customer focussed R&D and Silly Wild Assed Guessing (SWAG). I've spent way too much time in companies asking "How did you come up with that?"

The sharp one always say the same thing. And I've spent a lot of time looking at things companies have done and said WTF? and asked the same question and got crap for an answer.
 
Re: Is Gibson Typecast?

whoever green lighted the Zoot Suit SG and Holy Explorer really should have at least gotten empolyee of the month... at Fender.:friday::eyecrazy:

Excellent! You get the comedy award for the week. These models were a complete waste of corporate resources. They can do better than that. Part of their high-end prices go towards covering these follies.
 
Re: Is Gibson Typecast?

I know being innovative is a risk - but there is a difference between customer focussed R&D and Silly Wild Assed Guessing (SWAG). I've spent way too much time in companies asking "How did you come up with that?"

I've spent a lot of time looking at things companies have done and said WTF? and asked the same question and got crap for an answer.

+1. Well said. Thank you.
 
Re: Is Gibson Typecast?

Zerb, thanks for the thought and time, not to mention feeling, that obviously went into this post. I would like to answer a couple of comments.
...without ever opening one´s eyes instead of lips and actually looking at the product.
Actually I've looked at Gibson's product. Picked it up and played it even. It ranges from stunningly beautiful (you did say "opening one's eyes", though you later berated us for playing with our eyes instead of our hands, ears and heart) and expertly crafted to butt-ugly, or in other cases put together so sloppily that I wondered how the instrument was ever allowed to leave the factory.

1. How little most people really know about the way the guitar industry or even large companies in general operate. Especially in a niche industry such as guitar manufacture.
...
...
So obviously the billion dollar budget for R+D that some just assume that everybody has just flat out isn´t there.

Thanks for your extensive analysis of the musical instrument industry. While I don't have a business degree and know far less about the subject, I agree it's common sense that music gear companies don't have a huge budget. However, you conclude by telling us that limited funds are the reason Gibson can't do a better job of R&D. Sounds like you're agreeing with some of us who think some of their guitars are butt-ugly. I scratch my head because I can't fathom how someone at Gibson thought people would consider some of their guitars attractive, and you tell me it's because the company is too poor to hire anyone who knows what a cool guitar looks like.

Or even in this thread, a Les Paul instantly becomes "desecrated" by having a rainbow colored finish that the Poster didn´t like.
Guilty as charged! Now let's consider this "rainbow" finish. Do you think Gibson, though not a huge corporation, is a bigger company than PRS? I think it is. Now PRS recently came out with a rainbow finish guitar. I think it might be an Al DiMeola signature model. It doesn't look bad at all. PRS, on a more limited budget than Gibson, managed to design a rainbow finish guitar, yet managed to avoid making it look garrish or bizarre. The PRS looks neat, professional, and not at all unattractive. It's not my first choice of finish, but I think PRS's rainbow finish is well done.

How is it that small American guitar companies like Robin, Zion, Hamer, EB/MM, PRS and others consistently produce the most visually stunning guitars I've ever seen, presumably with an even smaller R&D budget than Gibson?

Now I realize Zerb, that you made the point that taste in finish is just that - a matter of taste. And I admit, my tastes lean to finishes that look neat, detailed, and professional, be they vividly colored burst finishes over flamed maple or stars and planets and bikini girls on 80's shredder axes. Something that looks like an oil slick is gonna make me wanna hurl. Now I realize that does not make that Les Paul a POS. Maybe its tone is so to die for, I'd even use it in the studio. After all, people listening to my songs on CD are not gonna know or care what my guitar looked like.

... that give luthiers and guitar companies a reason to sit back, laugh their ass off ath today´s average idiot, and say "We´re doing everything exactly the way we should be, stay the course." ;)
If Gibson feels they're doing exactly what they should be, then by all means let them stay the course. But I and everyone else is entitled to our opinions. And on an internet forum, we're entitled not only to have them but to express them. If Gibson laughs at me because I can't appreciate the beauty of custom shop guitars, classic and well loved designs, adorned with chrome engravings of paisley designs and bass going after lures, let them chuckle.
gibson_custom_shop_les_paul_engraved_ele.jpg
 
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Re: Is Gibson Typecast?

Man - one afternoon in a comfy room with a whiteboard and I could rework that whole company into something so sensible Stevie Ray and Jimi would fly down from heaven and ask for an endorsement deal.

And we would easily handle:
Low - middle - high end lines
classics - innovatives
historic - contemporary
custom - artists
Solid-semi-arch

Hell - that pretty much defines it right there. I could do up the rules for the product lines in a day. But! I would check the hell out of it with CUSTOMERS before I did change one....
 
Re: Is Gibson Typecast?

I don't have a problem with Gibson innovating and trying new things.

Good design is good and bad design is bad. It doesn't need to look like a Les Paul to be good and it doesn't need to be the Corvus to suck.

In fact, Gibson can release a reverse-sharkfin-robot-darkfire-made-of-MDF and as long as they don't bump something awesome like the SG Classic or 339 off the roster to make room for it, I don't give a crap.

I'm a Gibson fan. They DO still have some QC issues to deal with, but that seems to be improving. I also think they're TRYING to innovate while still giving players what they want. See the dual line of LP Standards... you have the + and the Traditional, and their details could not be more different. I think that's cool.

That doesn't change the fact that they have some ducks, though. Robot guitars, Zoot Suits, and this Shark thing top the recent list.

You take the good with the bad.

And, just because I can and do appreciate the good

doesn't mean I won't call 'em out on the bad.
 
Re: Is Gibson Typecast?

That's what gets me is i don't think their 'bad' ideas are bad per se. They strike me as a little out of touch at worst and they strike me as interesting at best...

They tried Holey Explorers and V's because chambered Les Pauls are selling very well...maybe people want a light-weight, radical Explorer too?

They tried Robot Guitars because the first thing that will make a player put down a good-sounding and good-playing guitar in disgust is its inability to hold tune. Maybe people would like R2-D2 to handle their tuning for them?

They tried the DarkFire because of the music industry's move towards the digital realm -- with DigiDesign's ProTools and that new all-tube preamp guitar modeller, you can get most effects and amp sounds out of a good recording PC...so they built a guitar that can get all of the 'basic' guitar tones, that can be directly integrated with a PC.

They tried the Zoot Suit because of the current trend of people putting .13 guage strings on their guitars and tuning to like C and D standard and eventually twisting their necks up. Can't warp a Zoot Suit, they strung-up prototypes with bass strings.

And they did the Sharkfin because it looks like Gus G's signature ESP, and he's Ozzy's new guitarist.

There's a reason for everything...they're thinking of the guitar playing populous in general and thereby "solving" problems not everybody is having...another huge problem with the 'niche market' thing is some dudes might not know (for example) that they needed a guitar with an unwarpable neck until way after their number 1 has warped beyond playability.
 
Re: Is Gibson Typecast?

That's what gets me is i don't think their 'bad' ideas are bad per se. They strike me as a little out of touch at worst and they strike me as interesting at best.

Problem is, these poorly-thought out & inadequately-researched 'ideas' cost a lot of money to complete as a final product. The average player can usually tell which will be duds right out of the starting gate. Factor in this: We were just talking about Gibson not having enough funding to do proper QC. See the connection? High-end guitars without consistent quality, and money thrown out the window on frivilous new products.

So when a customer calls complaining about the quality of the $2,500 Gibson they just bought, Customer Service says: Yeah, we've been having issues with that for a while, but have you seen our new Reverse V?" It's all a matter of priorities.
 
Re: Is Gibson Typecast?

And they did the Sharkfin because it looks like Gus G's signature ESP, and he's Ozzy's new guitarist.

.



Interesting theory.

Gus. G is a kick ass player.
Love Firewind.

I'm hoping his gig with Ozzy will open more people up to the power metal scene out there.
 
Re: Is Gibson Typecast?

Can't agree. Fender doesn't let their brands go too far away from the original molds. I didn't see any attempt at something really original from any of the above, if anything Fender's strategy is to make the companies they purchase stick to what they know.

Gibson is much more adventures when it comes to its subsidiaries. Epiphone do things that no one in Squier will even dare to think of...

Seriously?
Everyone thought when Fender bought Jackson, that it was going to end up like Epi or Kramer.
A budget guitar.

Quite the opposite.
Jackson's quality went up.
Charvel Guitars returned (with the fender headstock like the original San Dimas).

Through the Jackson/Charvel Customshop, the only limitation is your
imagination and pocket book.
Obviously, they won't build you a Les Paul.
But, they will build you a single cut design of your own imagination.
 
Re: Is Gibson Typecast?

Problem is, these poorly-thought out & inadequately-researched 'ideas' cost a lot of money to complete as a final product. The average player can usually tell which will be duds right out of the starting gate. Factor in this: We were just talking about Gibson not having enough funding to do proper QC. See the connection? High-end guitars without consistent quality, and money thrown out the window on frivilous new products.

So when a customer calls complaining about the quality of the $2,500 Gibson they just bought, Customer Service says: Yeah, we've been having issues with that for a while, but have you seen our new Reverse V?" It's all a matter of priorities.

Werd to the power of Love!

Seriously - people did want a light weight tricked out Explorer. And a dozen companies stepped up to the plate and delivered 20 years ago. And the ESP Gus G model will probably be available from ESP for Christmas. Meanwhile - still waiting on the Billy G model to be released, and no plans on the circa 1981 Hetfield model in the forseeable future....

FAIL FAIL FAIL !!! And all the while they stil don't make an LP with decent tuners and a state of the art bridge and decently matched pup set, or push pulls!
 
Re: Is Gibson Typecast?

Werd to the power of Love!

Seriously - people did want a light weight tricked out Explorer. And a dozen companies stepped up to the plate and delivered 20 years ago. And the ESP Gus G model will probably be available from ESP for Christmas. Meanwhile - still waiting on the Billy G model to be released, and no plans on the circa 1981 Hetfield model in the forseeable future....

FAIL FAIL FAIL !!! And all the while they stil don't make an LP with decent tuners and a state of the art bridge and decently matched pup set, or push pulls!

And yet people keep shelling out serious coin for Gibsons that have poor quality control and customer service in designs older than Moses. What's the company's financial situation these days? I really don't know. But if they're doing well who's to say they're wrong?

People don't buy things because because their powers of reason and critical thinking tell them to. We buy things because of emotional needs, fears and insecurities then use our brains to justify the decision we made. Time spent as a self loathing sales hole taught me that. Heck, look at our last 8 elected Presidents.

Looking at the price/feature/quality relationships with Gibsons convinces me further that P T Barnum was right. Then I think of the $4000 copy of an essentially stock '69 Strat with a shortened trem arm and a Duncan SSL-5. Or the $25000 copy of a $150 guitar we all know about.

No, Barnum was an optimist.
 
Re: Is Gibson Typecast?

my friend sent me an article out of an electronics magazine, it had a big section about gibsons MIDI guitars, they have some pretty high tech stuff, but point out in that guitar players don't like anything that's not traditional and probably won't buy it.

i can't find it now of course... and also of course they were not even talking about the zoot suits and the reverse V...

you guys are right, they would be better off with the high tech stuff at Kramer, and gibson could just build really nice les pauls and 335s
 
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