Is it worth to give 1000$+ for an Indonisian or MIM guitar ? Remember the past !!
- Thread starter narcsoul
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solspirit
Ultimate Post Liker
The woodz?
solspirit
Ultimate Post Liker
I had a lot of disposable cash in 84 & 85 when it was around $300 ....
Such a fool I was. lol
Benjy_26
25's Nemesis
I never said China can't make a quality or even competent instrument. I was pointing out that there isn't much invested into an overseas guitar when you consider the manufacturing methods and the cost of labor in a place like China. You brought up high tech, high precision devices made in China. I was merely pointing out that said devices need to sell at a higher price in order to offset R&D costs. A traditional guitar that copies, say, a strat, has literally zero R&D costs. You buy a MIA strat, measure it fully, punch in the beep boops into your CNC machine, and away you go.
Fun fact: it's cheaper to harvest wood in N America, ship it to China to get it made into skateboards, and then ship them back to sell in America than it is to pay Americans to build said boards.
I'm sure that you can't blame labor costs on the full 4k price of a Gibson vs an Epi, but some of it has to be due to labor. I also imagine that the nameplate makes a difference. Look at Lexus vs Toyota. Same vehicle for the most part, right?
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solspirit
Ultimate Post Liker
Benjy_26
25's Nemesis
Most def.
No kidding! It is a strange behavior for sure.
If the American manufacturers like Fender and Gibson are not competitive with the other options on the market, I'm not going to buy from them.
Paying a premium for the status of owning an American Fender or Gibson means absolutely nothing to me either. It becomes even easier to pass on them when there are options that are as well made as the current crop of Korean and Indonesian imports.
Bottom line is that it really is great to have the options we have these days. When I was first starting out, Squier and Epiphone were cheap and pretty crappy. They pretty much needed something to make them serviceable, right out of the box. Now, there are Squier models that are equal to or better than the MIM Fender Standards that were around back then.
solspirit
Ultimate Post Liker
US made instruments are highly sought after in other parts of the world as well, fetching quite the premium.
Ashurbanipal
New member
^^ Yes. In Australia also, because so much is imported (therefore taxes) and the $AUD tends to be weaker compared to the $USD and £, stuff costs quite a bit more. Though about 10 years ago, $USD and $AUD were on parity for a time, so it was a good time to buy guitars from overseas. Re. Brazil, I think there was an interview of Kiko in which he talked about this, how much an RG550 cost back in the early 90s and what it took to get one.
Some good points by Gruhn in the vid on p.1. In the light of that, it'll be interesting to see what happens to vintage guitar (i.e. 50s-60s F & G stuff) prices once boomers won't be around anymore. He's on the money about the socio-economic factors affecting purchasing habits. Plus, the music scene has changed along with that too - people play through plug ins, export their track and send it along, then it all gets put together in the computer, a far cry from back when you had to have an all tube 100w head to get 'that' sound.
The venerable US brands also have a lot of accumulated cultural capital and social prestige, which contributes to their cost and also the desirability. In places like Japan, they're crazy about this stuff. Just go to the big guitar shops in Shibuya, Tokyo
.
Some good points by Gruhn in the vid on p.1. In the light of that, it'll be interesting to see what happens to vintage guitar (i.e. 50s-60s F & G stuff) prices once boomers won't be around anymore. He's on the money about the socio-economic factors affecting purchasing habits. Plus, the music scene has changed along with that too - people play through plug ins, export their track and send it along, then it all gets put together in the computer, a far cry from back when you had to have an all tube 100w head to get 'that' sound.
The venerable US brands also have a lot of accumulated cultural capital and social prestige, which contributes to their cost and also the desirability. In places like Japan, they're crazy about this stuff. Just go to the big guitar shops in Shibuya, Tokyo
.
Benjy_26
25's Nemesis
It can be argued that the average paycheck in '95 was worth more than it is now.
solspirit
Ultimate Post Liker
From what I remember
1995... $319
1998.. $329
2002.. $239
2015-$249
Thats the last time I bought one.
IMENATOR
Well-known member
It is called inflation, I can complain the same about food, cars, houses, medical bills etc, and it is even worse in Covid times. I have recently played Charvels and EHVs that at in the range of $1,000 USD and are very good instruments IMHO both construction and tone wise. Being that said there are also good instruments in the $750 USD like the EVH Wolfgang Standard, not as good quality as the 1K but good enough for my needs, also the Player Strats are very good instruments. For me the one factor that really makes me choose for a guitar recently is how well it stays in tune and yes usually the more expensive ones stay in tune better, tone is not an issue lately as it used to be years ago.
Aceman
I am your doctor of love!
Greed is what happened.
The bottom line is manufacturing gets easier and cheaper. Better quality is available a lower and lower price points. My Chinese Jackson is amazing compared to a $299 Guitar in 1990. But when prices go up disproportionately to income. That is greed.
Median US Household Income:
1990: 54k
2020: 67k
Gibson LP Standard Retail price (which is very hard to find. Almost if someone has been scrubbing it...)
1990: $1200
2020: $2600. (LP Standard 60's)
Increase in Salary: 24%
Increase in Les Paul: 116%
Price per $ income ratio:
1990 LP vs income: 2% of your income
2020 LP vs income: 3.8% of your income
You can buy one Les Paul today, relative to the two you could buy in 1990.
The bottom line is manufacturing gets easier and cheaper. Better quality is available a lower and lower price points. My Chinese Jackson is amazing compared to a $299 Guitar in 1990. But when prices go up disproportionately to income. That is greed.
Median US Household Income:
1990: 54k
2020: 67k
Gibson LP Standard Retail price (which is very hard to find. Almost if someone has been scrubbing it...)
1990: $1200
2020: $2600. (LP Standard 60's)
Increase in Salary: 24%
Increase in Les Paul: 116%
Price per $ income ratio:
1990 LP vs income: 2% of your income
2020 LP vs income: 3.8% of your income
You can buy one Les Paul today, relative to the two you could buy in 1990.
Benjy_26
25's Nemesis
In '95, a MIM strat was what...399USD? If we adjust for inflation, we'd be looking at less than 700 bucks (off the top of my head).
Companies sell their wares for what people will buy them. They're here to make money. Let's not pretend otherwise.
chadd
New member
It's hard to take a guy seriously when his question to one of the foremost authorities on vintage guitars is about cheap imports. Having George Gruhn explain it is like asking Mario Andretti (or insert your favorite Indy/NASCAR/F1 driver) about negotiating rush hour traffic. Stop making dumbass people like this semi-famous.
chadd
New member
The funny thing is Gruhn expands on it to turn it into a worthwhile watch. His answer doesn't really fit the question, but it's an informative answer, even though everyone should already know the bottom line that new cheap stuff is better than cheap stuff has ever been.
