Is there a difference in older JBs than newer versions?

[lespauled]

I have a Kramer 84 from the mid-2010s with a TB-4 and it is the most amazing sounding guitar I’ve ever owned. I have bought other guitars with TB-4s and none of them sounded like my Kramer 84. They had much harsher mids. Nowhere near as sweet as the Kramer.

I figured it was the maple body, so I found 2 others that had the same configuration: maple body and TB-4. I started wondering if the guitar actually had a TB-4 in it. I took the pickup out and checked. The pickup was a TB-4, with the following serial: TB-4-20111102

i haven’t pulled the others, but they are later models than the original that I love. Is there something about that year, or were they possibly mid armed as TB-4s and be something with less mids?

I’m really stumped and am looking for a backup that I could switch to, and get a similar sound.

 

[BeKindRewind]

Forgive me if you've already tried this, but could it be as simple as playing with the height? Maybe the original one that you love is quite a bit lower from the strings compared to newer ones you're trying being higher, hotter, and harsher. Although pretty subtle, I also wonder if the change you're experiencing is due to different potentiometer values on the different guitars you're trying compared to the beloved one.

Are you able to hook up a multimeter to the JB you really like?

 

[Bill Dennis]

Check the pot values...

 

[Seashore]

Have you tried the pickup you like in the other guitars? Tried those other pickups in your main guitar?

 

[Mincer]

I have a Kramer 84 from the mid-2010s with a TB-4 and it is the most amazing sounding guitar I’ve ever owned. I have bought other guitars with TB-4s and none of them sounded like my Kramer 84. They had much harsher mids. Nowhere near as sweet as the Kramer.

I figured it was the maple body, so I found 2 others that had the same configuration: maple body and TB-4. I started wondering if the guitar actually had a TB-4 in it. I took the pickup out and checked. The pickup was a TB-4, with the following serial: TB-4-20111102

i haven’t pulled the others, but they are later models than the original that I love. Is there something about that year, or were they possibly mid armed as TB-4s and be something with less mids?

I’m really stumped and am looking for a backup that I could switch to, and get a similar sound.

Welcome to the forum!

Have you put any of the JBs on a meter to see what they read? Maybe the 'good' one is on one end of the expected tolerance and the others are on the other end. Different pieces of wood (even the same species) can also account for some differences, too.

 

[eclecticsynergy]

JB can behave rather differently in guitars that seem pretty similar.
It might just be a perfect match with this one.

As mentioned above, height adjustment can have a lot to do with it too.
IME the JB has generally preferred 250K pots, except in a dark or full sounding guitar.

Is the pickup original to this guitar? And are you the original owner - could it have had its magnet swapped?

Mid-2010s is not really old enough for a JB to be significantly different IMO.
Early ones from the 70s (perhaps even very early 80s) do indeed seem a bit mellower.
But I haven't noticed much variation among 21st century ones.

Not that I'm an authority on different production versions of the JB...

 

[Bill Dennis]

I am not buying the idea that they changed the recipe on the most popular pickup they make. That makes no sense

 

[Seashore]

They changed it since the mid 2010s? It's not a pickup from 1984, it's a pickup from a Kramer 84 from a few years ago.

 

[hamerfan]

TB-4-20111102 is not a serial number, but the mfg date backwards. It's a 2011 made pickup.

 

[alex1fly]

There's more to the sound than just species of wood and model of pickup. Every instrument is unique. Your Kramer may just be a really good one for what you want to hear.

 

[Clint 55]

Dur, missed that. If it's from 2011, it's possible the difference could be variation in the pickup, but the first possible explanation would be the guitar. To get a sense if there's a variation in the pickup, you'd have to compare the 2011 JB and a new JB in the same guitar.

 

[Chistopher]

TB-4-20111102 is not a serial number, but the mfg date backwards. It's a 2011 made pickup.

It's also the mfg date forwards.

 

[lespauled]

Forgive me if you've already tried this, but could it be as simple as playing with the height? Maybe the original one that you love is quite a bit lower from the strings compared to newer ones you're trying being higher, hotter, and harsher. Although pretty subtle, I also wonder if the change you're experiencing is due to different potentiometer values on the different guitars you're trying compared to the beloved one.

Are you able to hook up a multimeter to the JB you really like?

Thanks for all the responses. Yes, I've matched the heights of the pickups to the strings on all 3 Kramer 84 guitars. I've done the setup on all my guitars, and they have the same setup. I will make a soundcloud recording with the 3 different guitars.

I have checked the resistance on all 3 and they are very similar. Pot values are all 500K push pull.

I fully understand that the same wood/pickup combination will never be exact, but this is a drastic change. The 3 later model JBs sound almost identical to each other.

I am the first owner of the guitar, so it was stock from the factory when I got it, as are the other 2 (later) 84s that I have.

I have also had JBs(TBs) in other guitars, and they also seemed harsh to me. Those guitars were alder, and alder is not one of my favorites. In fact, I had an ESP LTD Kami-4 (Alder) with a Hunter pickup, and I hated it. I also have an ESP Kamikaze-1 (Maple) and I absolutely love that pickup in the guitar. I fully understand there is a correlation between the wood and the pickup.

I fully agree that this seems strange. There shouldn't be any drastic changes in pickups within the 2011 and 2017. It was the reason that I started buying JB pickups. I absolutely loved it in the original 84. Subsequent JBs did not give me that sound. That's also why I'm completely stumped.

I will definitely make a recording of the 3 guitars, and post it to soundcloud, so everyone can hear the differences.

Thank you all for your answers. I greatly appreciate the help on this matter. At least it confirms that I'm not losing my mind

 

[Aceman]

Dark piece of wood, 440k pot, and a slightly hotter JB, vs a Bright piece of wood, a 550k pot and a slightly cooler JB
- Sound could vary significantly, but they would all be very JB-ish.

 

[dystrust]

I am not biying the idea that they changed the recipe on the most popular pickup they make. That makes no sense

The JB has been around since the mid-70s and the recipe has changed a couple times in subtle ways mainly due to component availability. There are lots of opinions as to whether these changes make a difference in how the resulting pickup sounds, and the search function could easily uncover those discussions if you want to go there.

 

[Mincer]

Does bobbin material make a difference? Short/long legs? Wood spacers? 2 or 4 conductor?

 

[Bill Dennis]

The JB has been around since the mid-70s and the recipe has changed a couple times in subtle ways mainly due to component availability. There are lots of opinions as to whether these changes make a difference in how the resulting pickup sounds, and the search function could easily uncover those discussions if you want to go there.

I have been in the game for 35+ years. I've seen plenty of known facts and claims come and ultimately be proven false. I haven't seen any change that would impact sound other than age itself

 

[dystrust]

I have been in the game for 35+ years. I've seen plenty of known facts and claims come and ultimately be proven false. I haven't seen any change that would impact sound other than age itself

Does bobbin material make a difference? Short/long legs? Wood spacers? 2 or 4 conductor?

I'm not trying to re-open the old vs. new JB debate, so I'm going to make my comments brief and preface them by saying that I'm not a pickup winder personally.

I don't believe that bobbin/spacer material or hookup wire makes a difference in how a pickup sounds to us. It's possible that you may be able to see something on a spectrum analyzer, but that's far beyond the degree of precision I'm interested in. OTOH, I absolutely DO believe that different magnets make a difference, and the JB switched from a roughcast to polished magnet at some point in the early 80s. I haven't heard a new JB with a (swapped) roughcast magnet in person, but I have heard that same experiment done with a '59. The difference isn't huge, but the new '59 with a roughcast A5 goes from being a pretty good pickup to being just about indistinguishable from an early 60s patent number humbucker.

 

[hamerfan]

It's also the mfg date forwards.

Okay, this is an anglo vs European thing. For us it's a strange starting with the year or with the month.
Let's make a deal: you use the metric system and we start the date with the year.

 

[Mincer]

Okay, this is an anglo vs European thing. For us it's a strange starting with the year or with the month.
Let's make a deal: you use the metric system and we start the date with the year.

I am all for the metric system.