Is this the "golden age" of delay?

Re: Is this the "golden age" of delay?

So I take it you think the new production BBD chips and IC clock chips don't/ can't sound as good as the old now Out of production MN3205 BBD and MMN 3101 IC chips?

I actually sold my Maxon Ad-9 reissue with some of the last of the old BBD chips I mentioned above ( as used on Boss, Ibanez, Maxon, EHx from the 70's on) because I want to grab the new AD-9 Pro model with the Maxon propietary MC4107D BBD chip, cause the new AD-9 Pro pedal features look so attractive on paper.

Now after what you said, I am not so sure I should of sold it.

That's a hard question to just answer...

As a general rule I do not thing new analog delays sound as good as older analog delays but that is just my personal opinion and there are for sure exceptions to that opinion.

I'll give you an example...I don't think that the new AD-9's sound as good as the older AD-9's HOWEVER I don't think that the old AD-9's sound as good as the new Aqua Puss!

Like anything else it's not JUST the parts being used, it also comes down to how they are used...
 
Re: Is this the "golden age" of delay?

Don't forget the Pigtronix Echolution, that is one crazy delay pedal.

Indeed! Pigtronix makes some very interesting (if pricey) pedals.

I agree that if you're doing straight up comparisons many of the modern units aren't fully living up to the hype. ... Rolling off the frequency response doesn't make things analog and adding modulation doesn't make them tape.

That said, many of the vintage delays suck. They sucked back in the 80s and they still suck today. Low headroom, tone loss, poor bandwidth, short delay times, inability to function in an FX loop.

Back in the '80s we settled for these qualities because anything better was prohibitively expensive. Today, it has become "retro" to have that analog degradation in the loop.

I think this is an amazing era for delay simply because there are so many very high quality options available for cheaper than they've ever been. ...

So yes, this is the golden era simply because so many quality pedals have never been so accessible to so many players before.

Memory is cheap, and DSPs are too.

I've been on a quest recently to find a good family of discrete fx for my pedalboard, and my search for a good all-around echo unit continues.

I have the Pigtronix Echolution. Very cool unit, amazingly versatile, but still confuses the crap out of me on occasion. I got a new Carbon Copy recently which is a keeper, but does the cheesy bucket-brigade thing a bit too well. I picked up a Memory Boy but it was DOA and got returned. I want to try a Diamond Memory Lane but haven't had the fortune to find one in stock yet. That looks like my sweet spot for features and simplicity.

The CC plus a simple all-digital unit would both have a place on my pedalboard, but I would probably use a dedicated flanger/chorus instead of going to modulation on an echo unit if I wanted that.

I used to have a Digitech echo pedal from the 80's that was a 2-second analog delay with modulation. The footswitches were plastic crap, but I got a lot of great use out of that thing. Can't even find a picture of one today.

Echo pedals are one effect that is (theoretically) better digital than analog, and nowadays memory is cheep relative to what it cost back in the '80s. But the digital units that try to emulate that crappy old analog thing are kind of a joke.

Real tape echo units were a total gas, but I haven't seen one in a couple decades.
 
Re: Is this the "golden age" of delay?

Yes, it is, and as others have said, its the golden age for a lot of the effects we used back in the late 60's and 70's. Is it fair to say that the tape delay units from the 70's and 80's were better than the emulation that we produce today....???? In my opinion, where we are at today is much superior to where we were at back then. So much more flexibility, much better tones, more control, more variety. I disagree whole-heartedly with any statement that says the 80's were the golden age, .....maybe would agree that the 80's started the experimentation and development of where we are at today. The 80's gave us the foundation....but boy!!!! are we building on it. And its only going to get better!
 
Re: Is this the "golden age" of delay?

Yes, it is, and as others have said, its the golden age for a lot of the effects we used back in the late 60's and 70's. Is it fair to say that the tape delay units from the 70's and 80's were better than the emulation that we produce today....???? In my opinion, where we are at today is much superior to where we were at back then. So much more flexibility, much better tones, more control, more variety. I disagree whole-heartedly with any statement that says the 80's were the golden age, .....maybe would agree that the 80's started the experimentation and development of where we are at today. The 80's gave us the foundation....but boy!!!! are we building on it. And its only going to get better!

That's one way to look at it and you are entitled to your opinion but in my opinion these new delays do NOT sound as good much less better than many of the 80's units...I don't need more variety, I don't want more control and could care less about all the bells and whistles so for me...we're not at all moving forward.
 
Re: Is this the "golden age" of delay?

That's one way to look at it and you are entitled to your opinion but in my opinion these new delays do NOT sound as good much less better than many of the 80's units...I don't need more variety, I don't want more control and could care less about all the bells and whistles so for me...we're not at all moving forward.

No argument or disagreement intended for your opinion or your ear. As you said, its an opinion. Just Maybe, I look at it and hear it from a different perspective than you do. I am always looking to improve, to improvise, not do the same old thing that I did 20 and 30 years ago. I am 53 years old, I cannot imagine what I would be playing if I had a Strymon Timeline back in 1979. What units I could afford back then were junk. The older tape units I have tried today, are mechanical maybe's when they work, and I just do not have time for them these days. I love where the technology is going and the ease at which I can get the sounds from the past and the new sounds based on all of the experimentation from earlier years.....All in one pedal in some cases. For me, this is GOLDEN. No doubt.
 
Re: Is this the "golden age" of delay?

To be honest....it is all rackstuff in pedals now, studio tricks in little boxes.....lots and lots of options....like sawing off the barrel on a shotgun...full spread and no focus!

I have a few simple guidelines I follow, does it inspire to play guitar(sounding good and all that), and secondly does it sound good without endless hours wasted on tweaking the knobs?

Right now we are back at the same spot when people had huge 19" racks, tweaking and messing around for no other purpose than tweaking sounds....essentially a waste of time and way way too much focus on gear and what it does......

We are all different, some sounds good with massive effects, others does not and are better off with more sparse crude setups!

It is good to look at people who had achieved much with simple means!
 
Re: Is this the "golden age" of delay?

No argument or disagreement intended for your opinion or your ear. As you said, its an opinion. Just Maybe, I look at it and hear it from a different perspective than you do. I am always looking to improve, to improvise, not do the same old thing that I did 20 and 30 years ago. I am 53 years old, I cannot imagine what I would be playing if I had a Strymon Timeline back in 1979. What units I could afford back then were junk. The older tape units I have tried today, are mechanical maybe's when they work, and I just do not have time for them these days. I love where the technology is going and the ease at which I can get the sounds from the past and the new sounds based on all of the experimentation from earlier years.....All in one pedal in some cases. For me, this is GOLDEN. No doubt.

My only point is that just because something is new doesn't mean it is improved...

IMHO and to my ears these new analog voiced and or tape simulator delay pedals simply don't sound as good as real tape or real analog so why bother??

I look at it like this...things like the El Cap, the DL-4, the Timeline, etc, etc...etc do 5 or 10 or 15 or more flavors of delay and to me none of them knock me out however I can plug into my Aqua Puss and while it is a dirt simple delay with no real features I love the tone so I'll use that. I'd rather have one killer sound than I would have 15 or 20 so so sounds.

Now, if you like the DL-4 or the El Cap or whatever else then by all means use it and enjoy it.

As for the Golden Age I look at that like this...to me Golden Age means a time when there was a lot of innovation taking place...I simply don't see much innovation these days.
 
Re: Is this the "golden age" of delay?

No love for the MXR Carbon Copy? That thing's the ****.
 
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Re: Is this the "golden age" of delay?

My only point is that just because something is new doesn't mean it is improved...

IMHO and to my ears these new analog voiced and or tape simulator delay pedals simply don't sound as good as real tape or real analog so why bother??

I look at it like this...things like the El Cap, the DL-4, the Timeline, etc, etc...etc do 5 or 10 or 15 or more flavors of delay and to me none of them knock me out however I can plug into my Aqua Puss and while it is a dirt simple delay with no real features I love the tone so I'll use that. I'd rather have one killer sound than I would have 15 or 20 so so sounds.

Now, if you like the DL-4 or the El Cap or whatever else then by all means use it and enjoy it.

As for the Golden Age I look at that like this...to me Golden Age means a time when there was a lot of innovation taking place...I simply don't see much innovation these days.

Sure the tape echo units were cool, but they were also large and fairly cumbersome in a gig situation. Not to mention the mechanical nature of them led to some reliability issues. Is the emulation perfect? Maybe not, but it gets pretty close. They even make a new Space Echo in a dual pedal format.

On the other hand, look at some of the amazing things the digital delays of today can do. My DD-6 has reverse delay - so the repeats are reversed. It also has something call "warp" which is just wild when used correctly. Not to mention the ridiculous long repeat times.
 
Re: Is this the "golden age" of delay?

A company like Pro Guitar Shop that sells many delays has a pretty high interest in telling people it is some 'golden age'. The golden age was back in the 80s with the Edge and Steve Vai. I love delay, and I love that there are many pedals out there- but most people do fine with a DD3.
 
Re: Is this the "golden age" of delay?

No love for the MXR Carbon Copy? That thing's the ****.

I do love my Carbon Copy. It is a classic design and a simple unit that has a few tricks up its sleeve. The metallic green is cool, too. It will always have a place in my pedal board. But it only goes up to 600ms, and I do kinda wish the modulation rate control was accessible from outside the box. I also find the regeneration to be touchy - it really runs away if I turn it past 1:00 or so.

Carbon Copy covers the analog side, but for some stuff a clean (dare I say sterile?) digital unit might be better suited.

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Re: Is this the "golden age" of delay?

It may be a golden period in that the '80s brought chorus, early digital delays and the foundations of modelling (Tom Scholtz Rockman), and now we're seeing and hearing those concepts progress and flourish as they move into their third and fourth generations of development.

For decades, the standard instrument for playing jazz was the Gibson ES175. Many people would emulate that kind of sound with other guitars and get reasonably close, although obviously not exact. If you listened to the music, did it really matter if they had the benchmark instrument or had a similar tone from some other instrument ? Surely what they were playing would have been of greater interest, even if their tone wasn't a perfect match for the holy grail ?

Some time back i posted a clip of myself playing a Strat through an El Cap directly into the computer, no amp, speakers or mic's. It was simply a late-night soundscape/ambient/noodling kinda thing but i thought it captured a mood, and that was the reason why i posted it. A bunch of people responded, and a couple mentioned that they thought the El Cap sounded good, but the majority of responses said that they enjoyed the playing and particularly the mood. Any reasonable delay would have worked for me, but fortunately it was what i was trying to capture with my feelings, my hands and my guitar that resonated with the listeners. Would they have felt differently if i'd told them i was using a real tape delay or a cheap Behringer pedal ? Hopefully not.

I've owned several tape echo units (Copycat, Space Echo and an all-tube Klempt) but i sold them all. I simply couldn't access people to re-bush worn pinch rollers and other mechanical issues that these old units eventually suffer from. I like a good-sounding echo, but there is a point where i need to focus on what i'm actually trying to do with music and the guitar, and that is more important that what gear i'm using.

Good gear is important and often inspiring, but at some point surely the player has to take responsibility for what the listener hears, with their playing, feel, interpretation, emotion, etc.

What I do hope is that it won't be a 'golden age of delay usage' like the '80s was a 'golden age of chorus usage'. What i mean by that is that i hope that we don't enter an era where delay becomes so prevalent everywhere that there will be a backlash in the next decade and it will become a despised sound, and anyone who wants to use some delay will be derided for using it.

And some views in this thread seem to be verging on the classic "It sounded really good ...UNTIL i saw what they were using". Who cares ? Listen to the music, the ideas, the emotions, the performance, the message. Gear does contribute, but i hope the other things i just mentioned are much bigger contributors. After all, most people who listen to music, buy records and attend live shows don't know any of these details, they simply listen and decide if they like it or not ... whether what they hear touches or moves them in some way.

We come here because we like gear, but let's try to keep it in context. Technology has moved forward and will continue to do so, but it's good to remember that it's ONLY technology. Good, innovative, impassioned, exciting music can still be made on an acoustic guitar if the emphasis is on the player and the message.
 
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Re: Is this the "golden age" of delay?

The emulations are not even close.....but never mind it....it is a talk that has no end;)

YEP!

Truth is I'm betting 95% of the guys fighting about the tape issue have never even plugged into one and really have no idea what they are talking about.

My whole point has nothing to do with tape being better or anything like that...I just feel like there is nothing new going on here in this era of delay pedals.

Sure there are few things new but nothing like in the 80's...

I mean you have to think...the first delay unit that didn't use tape or disc or some other form of media, the first non mechanical unit was the Memory Man in 1976 but compact analog BBD based delay units weren't really widespread units the very early 80's and then just a few short years later compact digital units hit but during that time you could still analog units, analog units with built in modulation, tape units, oil can units...plus there were the early rack units in both analog and digital versions and programmable delays were out for the first time.

To me the last innovation in delays was Line 6 and that was well over 10 years ago...and even that falls short if you really listen, at least IMHO it does.
 
Re: Is this the "golden age" of delay?

YEP!

Truth is I'm betting 95% of the guys fighting about the tape issue have never even plugged into one and really have no idea what they are talking about.

My whole point has nothing to do with tape being better or anything like that...I just feel like there is nothing new going on here in this era of delay pedals.

Sure there are few things new but nothing like in the 80's...

I mean you have to think...the first delay unit that didn't use tape or disc or some other form of media, the first non mechanical unit was the Memory Man in 1976 but compact analog BBD based delay units weren't really widespread units the very early 80's and then just a few short years later compact digital units hit but during that time you could still analog units, analog units with built in modulation, tape units, oil can units...plus there were the early rack units in both analog and digital versions and programmable delays were out for the first time.

To me the last innovation in delays was Line 6 and that was well over 10 years ago...and even that falls short if you really listen, at least IMHO it does.

Here is my rub with what I highlighted in bold above........ YOU DO NOT KNOW THAT FACT! Its your opinion that 95% have not heard a tape unit. Afraid not, Heard them, played through them, and just recently helped rebuild one. At 53 and picking up a guitar when I was in fourth grade..... I have heard tape units. Honest to God.....No biggie. They did what they did. And to push this OPINION even more, it was the faults and mechanical inconsistencies that at first were a pain in the A$$ and then they said, wait a minute, that sounds pretty neat, lets keep that. We are doing the same thing today..... and faster! Golden age and experimentation is like Murphys law..... it just keeps doubling every year now.

Now I understand your thinking when talking about the 80's introducing more devices, better equipment, and taking delay to another level....if that is your thinking, yes golden age... but also expensive for the common player. Today it is golden because we can now buy those effects so much cheaper, more talent is coming of age and doing things I never thought of back then.

Now as for Vasshu's statement about studio and rack units in pedal form.... OH HELL YES, SHUT THE BEDROOM DOOR, SO damm true! And what a great thing to get that in the hands of bedroom players, regular bands, your everyday Joe and see what they can do with it. I am amazed by some of the YouTube videos that are out there. Pedal boards full of effects I could never imagine when I was in my early 20's in the eighties.

Look at the bigger picture my friends!!!!
 
Re: Is this the "golden age" of delay?

I think there is sometimes too much emphasis on effects now. Maybe its because I'm an old fart. I admit I use an EH Memory Toy but only the smallest amount. Apart from that its just the amp, some dirt and decent volume. Although one has to admire people like The Edge and the amazing Brian May who have really made that effect into their own signatures.

If you can't rock then eat curry.
 
Re: Is this the "golden age" of delay?

To be honest....it is all rackstuff in pedals now, studio tricks in little boxes.....lots and lots of options....like sawing off the barrel on a shotgun...full spread and no focus!

I have a few simple guidelines I follow, does it inspire to play guitar(sounding good and all that), and secondly does it sound good without endless hours wasted on tweaking the knobs?

Right now we are back at the same spot when people had huge 19" racks, tweaking and messing around for no other purpose than tweaking sounds....essentially a waste of time and way way too much focus on gear and what it does......

This is exactly why I'm using a Boss DD-5. I've gone through a couple of complicated digital delays that would do everything... but it was a pain in the ass to make simple changes.
 
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