Jazz and 59 necks...really much difference?

[freefrog]

Re: Jazz and 59 necks...really much difference?

you're talking bout a single bobbin! 7.5k is a lot with 43 AWG (almost full).
Only about 5k would fit with AWG 42 (full bobbin).

orphan is talking about the series DCR of 2 bobbins!
a single bobbin is normally around 4k with 42AWG.
single bobbin AWG43 of about 4k would sound wimpy.

The pickups that I evoke are a pair of custom made HB's, each wound at 7.5k (3.75k per bobbin) with AWG43. And once again, they sound bright, jangly, but not wimpy.

All is in the Art to design the magnetic circuit in order to make it cooperate nicely with the coils. The pickups that I mention host powerful mags and carefully selected slugs/screws/keeper bars. Their inductance is of 3.2H per pickup: it's somewhere between trad mini-humbuckers and regular full sized HB's wound with AWG42.

Doc, I hear you.

 

[ToneFiddler]

Re: Jazz and 59 necks...really much difference?

The pickups that I evoke are a pair of custom made HB's, each wound at 7.5k (3.75k per bobbin) with AWG43. And once again, they sound bright, jangly, but not wimpy.

All is in the Art to design the magnetic circuit in order to make it cooperate nicely with the coils. The pickups that I mention host powerful mags and carefully selected slugs/screws/keeper bars. Their inductance is of 3.2H per pickup: it's somewhere between trad mini-humbuckers and regular full sized HB's wound with AWG42.

Doc, I hear you.

he is talking about 59s and jazz PUs and similiar PAF based PUs. they are all AWG 42 and would sound "wimpy" with AWG 43 at 3.75k per coil. (another mans wimpy is a another mans bright, jangly/clear).
since the demon is probably something thinner than AWG 42 (bobbins not full at all) and with 10k(2x5k) already to wimpy for a lot of people (excluding me), but pickup geometry is based on standard PAF style dimensions/parts so can be used as comparison.
Now a extremly underwound Demon with 8k in series will not appeal to a lot of people.
That's what orpheo is talking about.

Different design (Mini HUms, Filtertrons, etc.) different rules.
a Filtertron wind on a PAF style PU with standard magnet would probably sound wimpy as well. BUt the thicker magnet, pole pieces etc. makes up for it...

 

[freefrog]

Re: Jazz and 59 necks...really much difference?

he is talking about 59 and jazz PUs and similiar PAF based PUs. they are all AWG 42 and would sound "wimpy" with AWG 43 at 3.75k per coil. (another mans wimpy is a another mans bright, jangly/clear) since the demon is probably something thinner than AWG 42 (bobbins not full at all) and with 10k(2x5k) already to wimpy for a lot of people (excluding me), but pickup geometry is based on standard PAF style dimensions/parts.

Different design (Mini HUms, Filtertrons, etc.) different rules.

Communication seems difficult today...

I've understood what this topic is talking about: see my first answers above. And to be clearer (?), the intention behind my last answer to Orpheo was not to refutate his statement, but to share this selected part of my own experience : AWG43 can be wound around regular full sized humbucker bobbins (like those of SH1's and SH2's), for an overall low resistance, without sounding wimpy. It just requires a discerning choice of the parts used in the magnetic circuit. And it's interesting for 12 strings guitars.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Jazz and 59 necks...really much difference?

There's some great information in this thread, mostly from Freefrog.

I just want to add that I have Duncans in all of my PRS SE guitars with humbuckers. For clean jazzy chords I get my favorite neck humbucker tone by using a 59n modded with a roughcast A3 magnet.

A3 is too weak for my tastes to use in my bridge humbuckers, but it's perfect for me in my neck humbuckers.

I like A3 in the neck and A2 in the bridge, and I prefer roughcast.

I don't own a Jazz neck although I owned one years ago.

I use the 59, Seth Lover and Antiquity humbuckers, and I believe all three are wound with 42 gauge wire.

 

[ToneFiddler]

Re: Jazz and 59 necks...really much difference?

@freefrog:
Ah oK didn't get that, sounded like you disagreed with orpheos statement.
And of course GuitarDoc got it right

I think Orpheo was referring to the physical dimention of the coil/wind, not the tone. Thus "wimpy" meant "small".

SO back to the OP

 

[Blobby]

Re: Jazz and 59 necks...really much difference?

Hello,
AlNiCo slugs can be found in single coils but are really rare in humbuckers (except in special PU's like the Stag Mags). P.A.F. style humbuckers host slugs and screws made of various steel grades, with more or less carbon content. Link: https://www.pafhumbucker.com/paf-pickups-screws.html

I've been reading about single coils...I think I'm getting some of my info all mixed up ;P Thanks for the link!

 

[Blobby]

Re: Jazz and 59 necks...really much difference?

The insulation of the wire makes a HUGE difference because of the thickness. Thicker insulation -> brighter tone.

I'm probably misunderstanding...and my electrical understanding needs more work...but I thought it was thicker insulation = darker sound. Because capacitance goes...down?

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: Jazz and 59 necks...really much difference?

I'm probably misunderstanding...and my electrical understanding needs more work...but I thought it was thicker insulation = darker sound. Because capacitance goes...down?

Capacitance bleeds treble, leading to darker sound. More capacitance = darker sound.

 

[orpheo]

Re: Jazz and 59 necks...really much difference?

I'm probably misunderstanding...and my electrical understanding needs more work...but I thought it was thicker insulation = darker sound. Because capacitance goes...down?

I thought so too, but heavy formvar is quite a bit thicker than poly or plain enamel and heavy formvar makes for a noticeably brighter pickup, all other aspects remaining the same.





And yes.I was talking about the dimensions of the coil on the bobbin being small and wimpy, not the tone. I can imagine a 7.5-8k 43awg pickup sounding not half bad with the right magnet and the right amount of iron in a bobbin. But... it's not 'standard fare'..

 

[esandes]

Re: Jazz and 59 necks...really much difference?

I was convinced, from all of the hype on the SD forum about the jazz neck, that the jazz neck was a benchmark for neck humbuckers. But after some youtube clip comparisons I'd rather use the 59.

 

[Mincer]

Re: Jazz and 59 necks...really much difference?

I was convinced, from all of the hype on the SD forum about the jazz neck, that the jazz neck was a benchmark for neck humbuckers. But after some youtube clip comparisons I'd rather use the 59.

I like the 59 better, too. But some don't like the neck pickup to have so much bass. I don't mind.

 

[JB6464]

Re: Jazz and 59 necks...really much difference?

All my neck humbuckers are Unpotted 59's with roughcast A5 mags .

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Jazz and 59 necks...really much difference?

I like the 59 better, too. But some don't like the neck pickup to have so much bass. I don't mind.

I don't like all that bass. So I use the 59 with an A3 magnet instead of A5.

An A3 59 would be a good pickup for SD to market.

 

[JB6464]

Re: Jazz and 59 necks...really much difference?

A lot of people complain about the bass in the 59N but few take the time to actually dial in the height and poles .
You can change a lot of tone by simply spending time adjusting the pickup to what your guitar needs .
And for the icing , get an Unpotted neck pickup , it sounds more open like the Ants which are Unpotted as well .

 

[Artie]

Re: Jazz and 59 necks...really much difference?

One of the reasons I prefer the 59n, is with a simple manipulation of the values in the de-mud mod, you can kinda dial it in to Jazz territory. But you can't dial a Jazz into a 59. So, a smidgen more versatility if you don't mind messing with stuff.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Jazz and 59 necks...really much difference?

One of the reasons I prefer the 59n, is with a simple manipulation of the values in the de-mud mod, you can kinda dial it in to Jazz territory. But you can't dial a Jazz into a 59. So, a smidgen more versatility if you don't mind messing with stuff.

That's why I like replacing the A5 magnet with a Roughcast A3 in my 59n. I get a jazzier sound out of a solidbody PRS SE Singlecut. Jazzy like Wes Montgomery playing his hollowbody L5.

Seems like there's a consensus that the 59n has a more pleasing tone to most of us than the Jazz n. But that the 59n has more bass than some of us prefer.

Artie's De-Mud mod or replacing the A5 magnet with a RC A3 or moving the pickup away from the strings or adjusting the polepieces will all thin out the tone of the 59n somewhat and get rid of some excess bass.

Pick your flavor!

I've never been happy with the tone I got by just adjusting the ht. and polepieces. Peter Green turned his neck humbucker around so the polepieces were closer to the bridge.

For me the A3 magnet swap gives me what I want from a neck humbucker. A little more breath and a pleasant "pop" when I pluck the strings. Articulate and clear, but smooth, breathy and warm.

That's not the sound I want from a bridge humbucker though!

I like Eric Clapton's Cream tone and for the way I play, replacing the polished A5 magnet with a roughcast A2 magnet in a 59B makes getting that sound easier.

 

[Artie]

Re: Jazz and 59 necks...really much difference?

Thanks Lew. I'll have to try an A3. I haven't messed with mag swaps much. Just getting ready to try my first A8 today. Film@11.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Jazz and 59 necks...really much difference?

Thanks Lew. I'll have to try an A3. I haven't messed with mag swaps much. Just getting ready to try my first A8 today. Film@11.

Try a roughcast A3 Artie. A little more complexity to the tone.

 

[Artie]

Re: Jazz and 59 necks...really much difference?

Cool. I will.

 

[PFDarkside]

Re: Jazz and 59 necks...really much difference?

One of the reasons I prefer the 59n, is with a simple manipulation of the values in the de-mud mod, you can kinda dial it in to Jazz territory. But you can't dial a Jazz into a 59. So, a smidgen more versatility if you don't mind messing with stuff.

Is that a cap in series for a high pass filter? It uses the volume pot resistance to calculate the frequency?