Jazz is all mistakes
- Thread starter phatzo
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TheLivingDead
Dawn Of The Shred
Re: Jazz is all mistakes
To your credit/discredit there was a fair deal of decent playing between those eff ups.
To your credit/discredit there was a fair deal of decent playing between those eff ups.
Chris of Arabia
Desert RATT
Jazz is all mistakes
I would contend that merely playing mistakes is insufficient to truly do jazz justice - for that, you need to play them with absolute conviction...
I would contend that merely playing mistakes is insufficient to truly do jazz justice - for that, you need to play them with absolute conviction...
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crusty philtrum
Vintageologist
Re: Jazz is all mistakes
(To the OP, just in case anyone misguidedly thinks this is in reference to anything or anybody else) ..
If you can weed out the non-mistakes, i think you'll really be onto something. But it will be a lifetime's work, mistakes are not easy to perform, they need practice. Ya got to eff up over and over until it becomes second nature. (well, some people seem to be naturals, but for most, accidental non-mistakes are a part of life that need to be worked on to eliminate them).
(To the OP, just in case anyone misguidedly thinks this is in reference to anything or anybody else) ..
If you can weed out the non-mistakes, i think you'll really be onto something. But it will be a lifetime's work, mistakes are not easy to perform, they need practice. Ya got to eff up over and over until it becomes second nature. (well, some people seem to be naturals, but for most, accidental non-mistakes are a part of life that need to be worked on to eliminate them).
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TheLivingDead
Dawn Of The Shred
Re: Jazz is all mistakes
Hah, I hear ya.
It's a good feeling to suck at trying to suck.
Hah, I hear ya.
It's a good feeling to suck at trying to suck.
Lazarus1140
New member
Re: Jazz is all mistakes
I wouldn't know, but sucking at trying to not suck really sucks.
I wouldn't know, but sucking at trying to not suck really sucks.
Falloffthebonetone
New member
Re: Jazz is all mistakes
Fear based music, jazz is.
Fear based music, jazz is.
F
Funkfingers
Guest
Re: Jazz is all mistakes
This resembles a quotation from an interview that Sting gave to Melody Maker in the very early Eighties. The gist was, if you play a bum note, keep a straight face and play it again. The audience will think that you meant it both times.
Alternatively, adopt Ornette Coleman's Harmelodic Theory. This justifies pretty much any note played against any chord or modal accompaniment.
This resembles a quotation from an interview that Sting gave to Melody Maker in the very early Eighties. The gist was, if you play a bum note, keep a straight face and play it again. The audience will think that you meant it both times.
Alternatively, adopt Ornette Coleman's Harmelodic Theory. This justifies pretty much any note played against any chord or modal accompaniment.
DrNewcenstein
He Did the Monster Mash
Re: Jazz is all mistakes
Those kids at GC must be Jazz virtuosos, then.
Those kids at GC must be Jazz virtuosos, then.
Matt42
New member
Re: Jazz is all mistakes
My band director in high school always told us a story about his favorite trumpet student ever. They were at the state music festival (a judged event here), and he played a bum note on his solo. The judges have copies of the music, so they could tell, but when it came back to that part later in the piece, he played it again, and so the judges all thought that the conductor had just changed the note.
I read a quote from one of the guitarists from moe. in a Guitar World once: "If you duff once, simply duff again, and it becometh jazz!"
My band director in high school always told us a story about his favorite trumpet student ever. They were at the state music festival (a judged event here), and he played a bum note on his solo. The judges have copies of the music, so they could tell, but when it came back to that part later in the piece, he played it again, and so the judges all thought that the conductor had just changed the note.
I read a quote from one of the guitarists from moe. in a Guitar World once: "If you duff once, simply duff again, and it becometh jazz!"
DrNewcenstein
He Did the Monster Mash
Re: Jazz is all mistakes
In truth, it's sad to see that Jazz has degenerated into that. I'm a huge fan of Big Band swing like Glenn Miller, Benny Goodman, etc, and the music was always spot-on.
Some years ago, I picked up a Glenn Miller Orchestra CD with Mel Torme and Manhattan Transfer doing classic GM songs with the original orchestra. Mel TOrme is old-skool, so his singing was on-target. Manhattan Transfer completely butchered the harmonies in "Kalamazoo" and "Pennsylvania 6-5000" by going off-key.
I returned the disc that day, demanding an exchange or refund. When they asked why, I informed them that this was "Jazz", not "Swing". The guy behind the counter (whom I knew to be a knowledgable musician) said "they're the same thing". So then we entered into a discussion on why they were not the same thing, at least in modern times. I won, and got an exchange for a CD that was cut from the original 1940s recordings.
I'm sure it is quite difficult as a Jazz player to convince yourself to play the wrong note, having spent so much time learning the various scales and modes and theory, and I've often heard players say "oh well, it's an inside joke". The thing about inside jokes is that everyone on the outside thinks you're an idiot.
I'd seen Joe Pass hailed by Guitar Player as a legendary Jazz guy, but never really heard anything form him, so I picked up a CD - 6-string Santa (it was Christmas, and the local shops just don't have a wide selection). This guy was a Jazz legend? Off-notes in every track! I was nont amused. Les Paul didn't have all this slop!
I just don't see the logic in it. If you can play it "right", why would you intentionally play it "wrong"?
In truth, it's sad to see that Jazz has degenerated into that. I'm a huge fan of Big Band swing like Glenn Miller, Benny Goodman, etc, and the music was always spot-on.
Some years ago, I picked up a Glenn Miller Orchestra CD with Mel Torme and Manhattan Transfer doing classic GM songs with the original orchestra. Mel TOrme is old-skool, so his singing was on-target. Manhattan Transfer completely butchered the harmonies in "Kalamazoo" and "Pennsylvania 6-5000" by going off-key.
I returned the disc that day, demanding an exchange or refund. When they asked why, I informed them that this was "Jazz", not "Swing". The guy behind the counter (whom I knew to be a knowledgable musician) said "they're the same thing". So then we entered into a discussion on why they were not the same thing, at least in modern times. I won, and got an exchange for a CD that was cut from the original 1940s recordings.
I'm sure it is quite difficult as a Jazz player to convince yourself to play the wrong note, having spent so much time learning the various scales and modes and theory, and I've often heard players say "oh well, it's an inside joke". The thing about inside jokes is that everyone on the outside thinks you're an idiot.
I'd seen Joe Pass hailed by Guitar Player as a legendary Jazz guy, but never really heard anything form him, so I picked up a CD - 6-string Santa (it was Christmas, and the local shops just don't have a wide selection). This guy was a Jazz legend? Off-notes in every track! I was nont amused. Les Paul didn't have all this slop!
I just don't see the logic in it. If you can play it "right", why would you intentionally play it "wrong"?
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adrian
New member
Re: Jazz is all mistakes
The discussion in this thread reminds of the one they had in art in the 1800s, when the impressionists was attacked by conservatives with arguments like "if you paint a human being why not do it so it looks exactly natural?"
The impressionists answered: because it´s art and you have to express something personal. Otherwize you can just take a picture with a camera.
Applied to music today: good modern and extreme jazz is not at all about "mistakes". It´s about making music that sounds just like you, and no one else.
The discussion in this thread reminds of the one they had in art in the 1800s, when the impressionists was attacked by conservatives with arguments like "if you paint a human being why not do it so it looks exactly natural?"
The impressionists answered: because it´s art and you have to express something personal. Otherwize you can just take a picture with a camera.
Applied to music today: good modern and extreme jazz is not at all about "mistakes". It´s about making music that sounds just like you, and no one else.
Rockstar216
New member
Re: Jazz is all mistakes
I always considered Joe Pass to be a legend because of his ability not because of his choice of notes. Mind you i'm not a big Jazz guy. I can't stand the more extreme forms of Jazz like Jazz Fusion with the weird time sigs and no rhythm and weird chords that have very little to no melody. As far as Jazz being all mistakes I think Jazz music is more about expression and Jazz improv is true improv to the sense you play what you truly hear in your head and most jazz players that I hear never just play stuff straight at least not the young guys they are always subbing out chords or playing stuff that really isn't called for.
Once I started learning Jazz theory I learned that their truly are no limits to what you can play but at the same time you have to learn what is necessary and when to play it that way.
I always considered Joe Pass to be a legend because of his ability not because of his choice of notes. Mind you i'm not a big Jazz guy. I can't stand the more extreme forms of Jazz like Jazz Fusion with the weird time sigs and no rhythm and weird chords that have very little to no melody. As far as Jazz being all mistakes I think Jazz music is more about expression and Jazz improv is true improv to the sense you play what you truly hear in your head and most jazz players that I hear never just play stuff straight at least not the young guys they are always subbing out chords or playing stuff that really isn't called for.
Once I started learning Jazz theory I learned that their truly are no limits to what you can play but at the same time you have to learn what is necessary and when to play it that way.
crusty philtrum
Vintageologist
Re: Jazz is all mistakes
Joe Pass is a musical legend for a very good reason, and would never permit anything less than stellar to be released. It is quite likely that he was in harmonic territory that is alien to your ears ... people have varying lengths to which their understanding/enjoyment of harmonic structure can be taken. Just because you got lost doesn't mean it's bad.
Joe Pass is a musical legend for a very good reason, and would never permit anything less than stellar to be released. It is quite likely that he was in harmonic territory that is alien to your ears ... people have varying lengths to which their understanding/enjoyment of harmonic structure can be taken. Just because you got lost doesn't mean it's bad.
crusty philtrum
Vintageologist
Re: Jazz is all mistakes
That's your choice, and you should be grateful to have choices. It simply tells me that your ears and brain don't grasp more complex harmonic structure, and you're reacting by dissing those forms. People have varying levels of acceptance and understanding, most people get lost beyong the basic harmonic structures as used in blues, pop, country, rock etc. You can learn to understand and enjoy the more complex stuff, ignore it or slag it off.
Of course most people find it easier to make stupid comments than to admit that it may be beyond their comprehension. Some such people even call themselves musicians. Jazz has it's own set of harmonic structures that define it, just as rock, blues, pop, country etc. do, but it is a much wider harmonic field. When you understand it, i guess you could be in a position to be derogatory.
Ya might as well go to NASA and stand next to a rocket and say 'This rocket is ugly'. Rocket science may not be your thing, but that doesn't make it invalid. It takes all the colours of the rainbow to make it beautiful, not just the one you like best.
That's your choice, and you should be grateful to have choices. It simply tells me that your ears and brain don't grasp more complex harmonic structure, and you're reacting by dissing those forms. People have varying levels of acceptance and understanding, most people get lost beyong the basic harmonic structures as used in blues, pop, country, rock etc. You can learn to understand and enjoy the more complex stuff, ignore it or slag it off.
Of course most people find it easier to make stupid comments than to admit that it may be beyond their comprehension. Some such people even call themselves musicians. Jazz has it's own set of harmonic structures that define it, just as rock, blues, pop, country etc. do, but it is a much wider harmonic field. When you understand it, i guess you could be in a position to be derogatory.
Ya might as well go to NASA and stand next to a rocket and say 'This rocket is ugly'. Rocket science may not be your thing, but that doesn't make it invalid. It takes all the colours of the rainbow to make it beautiful, not just the one you like best.
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