Jazz is all mistakes

Re: Jazz is all mistakes

I know a wrong note when I hear it, especially when it's a Christmas classic like "Let it snow". There's only so many notes that will work in the main melody and be in key with the rest of the song. He repeatedly hit the incorrect note whenever the last "Snow" in the chorus came around.

I have no trouble with people playing what they feel. Where I have trouble is when it sounds like everyone's playing a different song, or intentionally playing an unharmonious note "for giggles" when they clearly have the education and skill to do it "right".

I do not consider every form of expression to be "art". Those scrap metal "sculptures" that have no recognizable form, or splashes of color on a canvas that the "artist" has to tell me what they were going for, or where I, the viewer, have to "interpret", I do not consider "art", nor "artistic". I consider it haphazard, half-assed, and a poor excuse for laying out of work.

Yes, it would be boring if all painters painted their subjects in the same manner, however, Degas and Rockwell each had their own interpretation of the human form, and both are true to the human form, unlike Munch's depiction in The Scream, or Picasso's "nose-left" geometric patterns.

Improvisation as a concept in music is intended to be contextually relevant; you play a different but equally complementary solo for an existing song.
 
Re: Jazz is all mistakes

DrNewcenstein said:
I know a wrong note when I hear it, especially when it's a Christmas classic like "Let it snow". There's only so many notes that will work in the main melody and be in key with the rest of the song. He repeatedly hit the incorrect note whenever the last "Snow" in the chorus came around.
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Do you have a link to this performance/recording ? I'm very curious to hear it. Of course there are jazz wankers just like there are art wankers in all forms of music and art in general, but Joe Pass is not one of those people ... he knew exactly why he would play a given note or harmony at any given point for a specific effect on the tune and listener, and he didn't become a legend by making bad choices.
 
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Re: Jazz is all mistakes

And it's fine and dandy to have a wider field of harmonic structure than rock, pop, country, etc. It's well-documented that exotic scales like the Arabic or Spanish Phrygian simply do not work in Country.

However, that does not give anyone license to call their mishmash of notes "art", or even "music". It's not that I don't comprehend it, it's that they don't comprehend structure, harmony, and composition.
 
Re: Jazz is all mistakes

crusty philtrum said:
Do you have a link to this performance/recording ? I'm very curious to hear it. Of course there are jazz wankers just like there are art wankers in all forms of music and art in general, but Joe Pass is not one of those people ... he knew exactly why he would play a given note or harmony at any given point for a specific effect on the tune and listener, and he didn't become a legend by making bad choices.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deuGVyWYCZM

My mistake - it's not on "every" pass as I stated previously. He does it once at the beginning and then again around 2:58. Still, in my band, that would have been a do-over.
 
Re: Jazz is all mistakes

Ok, i listened, I heard. Firstly, that's obviously a recording that was designed to sell a lot of copies, a christmas album for the masses, so it's pretty tame really. Only a few notes would stretch the ear of the average listener (and even then, only a little ... I'm sure Joe was aware of that ) .... serious jazz can be a lot more demanding than that. I wouldn't say that's elevator music, but it is jazz being watered down in that direction for the masses. Many jazz players would do that sometimes simply because there was a lot more money in it than doing their usual 'purer' styles.

Jazz harmony is largely based on the idea of establishing a harmonic theme and then taking the listeners' ears 'outside' of the obvious key centres, and then resolving back to the home. It's a tension and release thing. On a simplistic level, blues does that with the 3rd/flattened 3d, and some microtonal interplay between the two, often using the minor third over a major or dominant chord. Some listeners would find that difficult to deal with, but most can come to grips with it without too much trouble. Jazz takes that principle a lot, lot further, and in doing so, some listeners get left behind, they aren't able to make the journey. Some people develop their ability to go further with it by doing a lot of listening, others find it difficult and don't pursue it. That's why the harmonically simpler forms like pop, blues, country, rock etc. have much wider acceptance .. the forms are kept harmonically simple so very few listeners get left behind. The other side of that coin is why it is hard for those idioms to expand, because introducing any other harmonic ideas immediately pulls the genre away from the listener.

(I'm talking about jazz played be people who have studied and know what they're doing, not uneducated clods who are just playing random notes in an attempt to sound 'jazzy' ... educated players know what they're doing at any given point and can tell you why they're doing it, and they can repeat it at any time in any key). Of course at some point taste comes into the equation, the taste and abilities of both the player and the listener.
 
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Re: Jazz is all mistakes

DrNewcenstein said:
However, that does not give anyone license to call their mishmash of notes "art", or even "music". It's not that I don't comprehend it, it's that they don't comprehend structure, harmony, and composition.
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Joe Pass had a massive understanding of music and harmony, I have one of his books from the 1970s, and it's obvious in his playing, and why he was a legendary figure even in life. If your preferences in listening and his choices in playing don't align, it doesn't diminish his skills in the least. However there will always be 'pretenders' as i've mentioned, but Joe was never one of those. I don't like most metal, but I wouldn't say it's because the players can't play .... many of them play very well, they simply make sounds that have no appeal to me. But once again, as in all genres, there are those who are good and know what they're doing, and those who are pretenders. I try to hear the good ones, but i accept that even then i won't automatically love what they do.
 
Re: Jazz is all mistakes

DrNewcenstein said:
He repeatedly hit the incorrect note whenever the last "Snow" in the chorus came around.
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dude....thats no mistake he plays that note. Its deliberate.

Herb Ellis says it best...a mistake is a note you didn't mean to play.

DrNewcenstein said:
It's not that I don't comprehend it, it's that they don't comprehend structure, harmony, and composition.
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Maybe if Joe was still alive you could ridden over to him on your high horse and told him that, and then perhaps you could show him how to do it "right". lol
 
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Re: Jazz is all mistakes

That tone was probably a small joke from Joes Pass´s side. Since he had to play that cheezy song on a Christmas record, he had to put in something that broke the sleepy standard. And he succeds: I smile, with him, every time I hear the "wrong" note.

But in general: it sounds like jazz sounded some 50 years ago.

Here´s how things have developed the last 35 years. The extra-ordinary Hans Reichel plays a "blues" with his own invention the daxophone - looks like a shoehorn, and is played with a bow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewEcu-cUjXg
 
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Re: Jazz is all mistakes

By contrast, I picked up a "Smooth Jazz Guitar" compilation CD several years ago and while it does feature "outside" playing in many of the songs, it's something I can deal with, probably because everyone's still in key, except for maybe one instrument for one chord.
 
Re: Jazz is all mistakes

When I was young in the late 60s I purchased a vinyl record with John Mayall and the Bluesbreakers. My family disliked it because they thought that Mayall sang out of tune. I tried to explain that he sang blues with quarter tones, so called "blue notes". They didn´t understand what I was talking about, though, and went on saying he wasn´t able to sing in tune.
 
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