Jeez, prices on USA LM308 ProCo Rats have gotten stupid

St_Genesius

New member
I've been thinking about trimming my board down from two RATs to one, and those prices really make me consider dumping the American one. Maybe I should sit down and A/B them again. I did it when I first bought them and couldn't hear much in the way of an appreciable difference, either into an amp or direct into the board (Sune Rose Wagner-style). If I still can't hear a difference, maybe I should take advantage of the craziness of others and make a profit. Hell, it worked with the one-piece body Tribute...
 
Re: Jeez, prices on USA LM308 ProCo Rats have gotten stupid

I've got a MIC Rat with the OP07 in it, sounds fine to me. I may put a LM308 in it, but I'm not sure I'll be able to tell the difference.
 
Re: Jeez, prices on USA LM308 ProCo Rats have gotten stupid

I think maybe this weekend I'll record an A/B and post it here.

Until then, this should be required viewing:

 
Re: Jeez, prices on USA LM308 ProCo Rats have gotten stupid

That video is hilarious. A bunch of people's heads will explode upon seeing that. I'll bet some circuits are more affected than others, but wow.

I'm glad I have a vintage Rat though.
 
Re: Jeez, prices on USA LM308 ProCo Rats have gotten stupid

If theres anyone looking for a vintage rat sound, or maybe the whiteface reissue you should look at a handbuilt LM308 distortion from Hartman Electronics. Lots cheaper than a whiteface reissue, hand built, and has dual footswitchable modes that allow you to go from regular rat mode, to a louder, more dynamic overdrive mode.

re: the visual sound video....those things are tube screamer clones. The opamp just serves as an amplifier and the diodes do the clipping. In a rat, the opamp is actually one of the things that are clipping, so it makes a big difference.
 
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Re: Jeez, prices on USA LM308 ProCo Rats have gotten stupid

I think maybe this weekend I'll record an A/B and post it here.

Until then, this should be required viewing:


That video is hilarious. A bunch of people's heads will explode upon seeing that. I'll bet some circuits are more affected than others, but wow.

I'm no electronics whizz, but it would be interesting to hear what the function of that op-amp in the circuit actually is.

I've done an op-amp swap in the output stage of a CD player and the difference was huge. Turns a $300 player into a $500 player huge. That's a line level audio circuit though, not a clipping overdrive circuit. Not that I know what the difference is electrically, but I'm also talking about $10-$20 opamps not fifteen cent'ers.

Therein lies the difference. An overdrive circuit has so many other components adding dirt to the signal that even swapping to a completely different type of opamp makes little to no difference in sound.

Depending on what that opamp is actually responsible for in the circuit, doing a swap may or may not change the sound in any perceivable way. The thought that vintage opamps are better than current production opamps is absolutely nuts. The thought that you would be able to tell the difference in an OVERDRIVE circuit should earn you a place in a mental health facility.
 
Re: Jeez, prices on USA LM308 ProCo Rats have gotten stupid

In case it matters to anyone I have a Rat with the LM308 chip and pre 3XX,XXX serial number for sale. Apparently both of those things are huge plusses in the Rat world.


On a related note to the op amps... I had an older TS9 Tube Screamer for sale a few months ago. One tire kicker thought the pedal sounded great until he found out it didn't have the "right" chip in it. After that the pedal suddenly sounded horrible and that even though it was an non-reissue TS9 it still wasn't a "REAL" TS9. :wrf:



The Visual Sound shootouts have me intrigued so I picked up a used Rt 808 to try out. I've been looking for an overdrive pedal and had been eyeing a few Klon clones and Keeley modded pedals. However, the Visual Sounds pedal sounded pretty good and admittedly I had a difficult time telling the difference between each of the pedals in the shootout. If I didn't watch the screen I couldn't always tell when there was a pedal change. Their shootout may have been biased (as I read around the internet. I don't know if there was a real bias or if people are mad that a $100 pedal could seemingly hold its own with pedals ranging in cost from $200-$1000?), but for $60 used I figured it wouldn't hurt to try it out. I wouldn't mind recreating the test my self. Any one want to loan me a vintage TS 808, a Keeley TS9, and a Klon? I might have them for a while. Extensive testing needs to be done... you know... for science.
 
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Re: Jeez, prices on USA LM308 ProCo Rats have gotten stupid

i reckon id rather have a clone than an original anyways for gigging. Theres no such thing as magic in electronic pedals. Just sound
 
Re: Jeez, prices on USA LM308 ProCo Rats have gotten stupid

I've owned 2 rats, the original one and the turbo model... both were cool, but I sold em both for way cheaper than they go for nowadays.... meh...

Not really sure where the price gouging is coming from...
 
Re: Jeez, prices on USA LM308 ProCo Rats have gotten stupid

Not really sure where the price gouging is coming from...

Hype. People say that this chip, resistor, or whatever sounds better than the others. Regardless if it is true Tube Screamers automatically sound better with JRC4558 chip and Rats automatically sound better with a LM308. Pedals automatically sound better with true bypass. The original run sounded way better than the reissues. It doesn't matter if it is true or not these are the ideas that get passed around the internet and if it is on the internet than it MUST be true. IMO the hype is driven by jealousy and envy of other guitar players. And producers and owners of these pedals have found an easy way to cash in on this. Offer a product that has these features and it can increase profitability. Play up the fact that your pedal has the holy grail of chips in it and you can justify having to sell a kidney to get the pedal in the first place and now the two kidneys you are charging when you go to sell it because now it is "vintage."
 
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Re: Jeez, prices on USA LM308 ProCo Rats have gotten stupid

Anytime something is out of production the price goes up.

Put yourselves to the test...get an LM308 rat and a new non LM308 Rat and do some A/B testing on your own...I have done it and I know what I heard but it's pointless to spout off about what is hype and BS if you'v never tried it...
 
Re: Jeez, prices on USA LM308 ProCo Rats have gotten stupid

Just as a personal note that vid is sort of BS...no isolated loops to do the A/Bing plus we are watching it on compressed all the hell and back UTOOB vids...

Also FWIW the op amp in a Rat plays a completely different function than thed op amp in a TS...
 
Re: Jeez, prices on USA LM308 ProCo Rats have gotten stupid

On a related note to the op amps... I had an older TS9 Tube Screamer for sale a few months ago. One tire kicker thought the pedal sounded great until he found out it didn't have the "right" chip in it. After that the pedal suddenly sounded horrible and that even though it was an non-reissue TS9 it still wasn't a "REAL" TS9. :wrf:

People are idiots. The chip or whatever is just another spec, and people buying this stuff often find it easier to compare specs than to listen and actually evaluate the sound coming out of the speaker -- because that requires time, effort, and mental focus. A reason why something should sound good is so much more convincing than the thing actually sounding good.
 
Re: Jeez, prices on USA LM308 ProCo Rats have gotten stupid

It was actually your listing that inspird me to go check out prices on eBay. You're asking over double what I payed for my USA, LM308, pre *2*XX,XXX serial RAT less than two years ago. I thought maybe you were stoned. But no, that seems to be about the going rate.

In case it matters to anyone I have a Rat with the LM308 chip and pre 3XX,XXX serial number for sale. Apparently both of those things are huge plusses in the Rat world.
 
Re: Jeez, prices on USA LM308 ProCo Rats have gotten stupid

Why would the audio quality matter in a video where we don't actually get to hear the tests? We hear a bit of the first comparison, then it fast forwards to the end.

Just as a personal note that vid is sort of BS... we are watching it on compressed all the hell and back UTOOB vids...
 
Re: Jeez, prices on USA LM308 ProCo Rats have gotten stupid

I've tried it. The differences were no greater than those between any two pedals of the same sort. The MIC was slightly more aggressive at the same settings, but a tiny tweak backwards on the knobs and they matched up as exactly as I could imagine any two things matching.

Put yourselves to the test...get an LM308 rat and a new non LM308 Rat and do some A/B testing on your own...I have done it and I know what I heard but it's pointless to spout off about what is hype and BS if you'v never tried it...
 
Re: Jeez, prices on USA LM308 ProCo Rats have gotten stupid

That vid demonstrates what I have always said.

They aren't exactly doing it in the most scientific way possible. Teaching Sensation and Perception and doing experiments was a hobby of mine for a while. I can beat a ton of details that are problematic with it, but the fundamental issue is correct.

The REAL way to do this is a repeated measures design, whereby each person will listen to a pedal with one of the various chips and try to decide which it was. They would do this repeatedly, with the chips presented in different orders. Then, if after repeated passes they could identify them better than chance (say greater than 33% accuracy) then you would know. And even if they could identify them accurately, if there was any proportional difference in preference between them with the group of people tested. Even if I can tell grocery store brand vanilla from brand name vanilla from ice cream shop vanilla only says that they are different. But if there is no distinct preference...then there is clearly not a "superior" ice cream. And a lot of times the grocery store is the SAME thing in a different box.

Also - should be done alone. Many will raise/not raise their hands just because they don't want to seem stupid compared to others.

I'd baseline the pedals with as sensitive a spectral analysis of the sound as possible when setting the knobs too.

Like I said - I bet there are some killer sounds coming off the vinyl from the 70's that were a Norlin LP through a Solid State Peavey...and today, some coming off a hard drive that were a Marshall plug in and a Swiss cheese short tenon poly topped 498T based Les Paul - that you would swear was a 59 reissue through a Splawn.

Science talks, BS walks. Unfortunately, music is mostly BS. The pedal costs more because cork sniffers and booteekers pay the money. A Rat shouldn't cost any more than any other pedal of that nature. Get real - how much do you think the parts cost?

A Les Paul Custom is $300 worth of wood and parts (when purchased in bulk) Same as an ESP 1000, or PRS SE, or any other guitar that size and shape. Maybe $600 when said and done at the most. The market (that's you if you buy them...and their stupidity and deafness) makes up the difference.

There is a reason wine guys do blind taste testings. They want the best WINE - not the best CORK.
 
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Re: Jeez, prices on USA LM308 ProCo Rats have gotten stupid

It was actually your listing that inspird me to go check out prices on eBay. You're asking over double what I payed for my USA, LM308, pre *2*XX,XXX serial RAT less than two years ago. I thought maybe you were stoned. But no, that seems to be about the going rate.

I did my homework on that one ;).
 
Re: Jeez, prices on USA LM308 ProCo Rats have gotten stupid

I've tried it. The differences were no greater than those between any two pedals of the same sort. The MIC was slightly more aggressive at the same settings, but a tiny tweak backwards on the knobs and they matched up as exactly as I could imagine any two things matching.

Strange...I did it myself several times and I'd say the differences were rather large so I'll say now whatI've said in the past...

Just becasue you don't hear a difference doesn't mean that there isn't one...

If you feel like you can dial a new Rat into to sound like an old one then you just saved yourself a chunk of change...
 
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Re: Jeez, prices on USA LM308 ProCo Rats have gotten stupid

A Les Paul Custom is $300 worth of wood and parts (when purchased in bulk) Same as an ESP 1000, or PRS SE, or any other guitar that size and shape. Maybe $600 when said and done at the most. The market (that's you if you buy them...and their stupidity and deafness) makes up the difference.

Okay, let's say there's $300-$600 worth of materials in a guitar like that. Do you really think that's all there is? What about the labor to put it together? What about the fact that you're buying a little piece of the company that built it? (Maybe not in the legal sense, but in the spiritual sense.) When people moan about the price of something and point out that it's only so many dollars' worth of materials, I always think, "Okay, so go buy the materials at wholesale and build it yourself." That's where BS walks, because some can pull it off, but most can't.
 
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