Jeez, prices on USA LM308 ProCo Rats have gotten stupid

Re: Jeez, prices on USA LM308 ProCo Rats have gotten stupid

It's impossible to argue with that, obviously. In an argument between "they sound the same" and "they sound different" I suppose the edge is always going to go to guy who says he hears a change.

Just becasue you don't hear a difference doesn't mean that there isn't one...
 
Re: Jeez, prices on USA LM308 ProCo Rats have gotten stupid

I have a MIJ boss ds-1. Def sounds a bit different than the mit ds-1.

I had a Rat that was a 96 M.I.A. I heard a bit of difference between that and my brother's MIC Rat. MIC was raspier and thinner.

Not a HUGE difference... but it was there. I know I feel better knowing I have an authentic piece of gear anyway lol. Lame maybe, but that's my perogotive.
 
Re: Jeez, prices on USA LM308 ProCo Rats have gotten stupid

It's impossible to argue with that, obviously. In an argument between "they sound the same" and "they sound different" I suppose the edge is always going to go to guy who says he hears a change.

This is pretty much true, unless you're going to set up double-blind testing, like a scientist trying to debunk a psychic medium doing parlor tricks in Victorian-era society. Barring that, it's kind of like when another guy tells you he has wood -- you're better off taking his word for it.
 
Re: Jeez, prices on USA LM308 ProCo Rats have gotten stupid

It's impossible to argue with that, obviously. In an argument between "they sound the same" and "they sound different" I suppose the edge is always going to go to guy who says he hears a change.

My point is that some guys try 2 pedals or 2 kinds of tubes or cables or strings...whatever and they say that they hear no difference then start telling other people that there is no difference...

I hear no difference and there is no difference are 2 very, very different things...

I know guys that can't hear the difference between a Strat and a Les Paul but some guys claim to be able to hear very small changes in gear and who am I or anybody else for that matter to tell them they are wrong...
 
Re: Jeez, prices on USA LM308 ProCo Rats have gotten stupid

For what it is worth I thought the Visual Sound compression shootout was a better comparison.
I remember wanting a RAT a few years ago and couldn't find one under $100 now I can find a few 90s ones for about 80 - 90 on eBay
 
Re: Jeez, prices on USA LM308 ProCo Rats have gotten stupid

I got my proco RAT II a year ago from musiciansfriend.com for $70. It sounds GREAT distortion, fuzz, OD all in one pedal (yes I know it is a distortion pedal) and I am happy with it!!! :beerchug:

that is really cheap for what it is! note that they/sweetwater also sells the $200 whiteface rat. dont pay $130 for that. it has less chunky distortion and the price is jacked up methinks. in the 80s no one would dream of paying $200 for that and you shouldnt pay for it today either, no matter what tone snob tells you the chip is better (cool video btw)
 
Re: Jeez, prices on USA LM308 ProCo Rats have gotten stupid

Just curious, have you tried a You Dirty Rat?
 
Re: Jeez, prices on USA LM308 ProCo Rats have gotten stupid

I've played around with them in stores a couple of times, but haven't spent anywhere near the amount of time with one that I've spent with my two regular ones. My impression was that if I wanted a RAT sound, this wasn't quite it and if I wanted a gemranium fuzz sound...this wasn't quite it. I'm sure it could be the supercool key to someone else's sound, but it wasn't for me.

Just curious, have you tried a You Dirty Rat?
 
Re: Jeez, prices on USA LM308 ProCo Rats have gotten stupid

It was actually your listing that inspird me to go check out prices on eBay. You're asking over double what I payed for my USA, LM308, pre *2*XX,XXX serial RAT less than two years ago. I thought maybe you were stoned. But no, that seems to be about the going rate.

I've been watching the eBay prices on RATs for a while now and have noticed that there's a lot of "Buy It Now" auctions with prices from around $150 and up - the earlier the RAT, the higher the price. Two of the biggest sellers are fritz_worldwide and dseffects. These units don't appear to actually ever sell although they state they do and it's always just before the end of the auction (easily faked by the seller). There is apparently an unlimited supply as each time one is "sold" another one gets listed as a new item. Typically these are listed as "Vintage ProCo RATs" made is USA with LM308 from late 80s through the 90s but they are actually RAT-2s. There are also a few real vintage original RATs both small-box and big-box. Typical prices for a real vintage small-box RAT is about $150-200, big-boxers go for a fair bit more. I actually saw an original whiteface go for only $50 recently!!! - it had a name painted in white on one side and only got one bid. Real auctions for USA LM-308 RAT-2s generally go for around $100-150 - less or more depending on age. I can't understand why someone would pay $150-200+ for a late 80s/early 90s RAT-2 when you could get an original for the same or less. My only guess is that buyers aren't all that aware that there's a difference between the two and the sellers don't make it clear.

The best deals are the big-box Vintage RAT reissue which typically go for around $75-100, and the Turbo RAT which goes for around $50 or less - even for early ones which are identical to the early RAT-2s except for the clipping diodes (and the slanted box). BTW - You Dirty RATs are rarely found.

Another interesting tidbit is that later RAT-2s are more like the originals than the early "vintage" RAT-2s. When the Deucetone was introduced in 2002, the new PCB it used reverted to original RAT specs and this PCB started being used throughout the USA-made line. Even the new Chinese RAT-2s use the original RAT circuit. And as far as I know, the Turbo RAT and You Dirty RAT have always been USA made only so these are great deals.

My advice to anyone looking for a RAT is to get a used Turbo RAT for cheap and change out the clipping diodes. Or even better put all three RATs in the same box using a switch.
 
Re: Jeez, prices on USA LM308 ProCo Rats have gotten stupid

/\ Bingo, the Rats are all the same except for the clipping diodes (although the circuit has gone through some minor changes over the years). The Turbos have LEDs, the "Rat" has silicon, and the Dirty Rat has germanium.


On a side note; I can't imagine that the circuit changed when production moved to China, maybe the quality of the PCB, but as a product designer, I kinda doubt it, I'm sure they are made from the exact same gerber files (files used to make PCBs) as they were here, and spec'd the same. The only real change was from the LM308 to the OP07. For something as straight forward, if the circuit is the same, it doesn't really matter where it is assembled. I'm not saying that is the case with everything, MIC guitars are not equal to MIA or MIJ. But for a simple electronic product like a pedal, it's not going to affect the sound.

That said, I prefer MIA items, but it's not always practical these days.
 
Re: Jeez, prices on USA LM308 ProCo Rats have gotten stupid

I've played around with them in stores a couple of times, but haven't spent anywhere near the amount of time with one that I've spent with my two regular ones. My impression was that if I wanted a RAT sound, this wasn't quite it and if I wanted a gemranium fuzz sound...this wasn't quite it. I'm sure it could be the supercool key to someone else's sound, but it wasn't for me.


Cool. I aree. It does kinda sit between a regular Rat sound and...well, everything else. I have one and it's pretty much my sole source of dirt these days. I really dig it but someday soon I really want to get a regular one (or possibly one of the older ones) to run alongside it and compare it too.
 
Re: Jeez, prices on USA LM308 ProCo Rats have gotten stupid

On a side note; I can't imagine that the circuit changed when production moved to China

You're right - it didn't. But they did do their own PCB. I've spent far more time than is sane and looked at several schematics and traces (including two of my own for a vintage reissue and a 1990 turbo) and maybe hundreds of images of various RAT PCBs (FWIW I've been able to distinguish 2 different Chinese PCBs - the earlier one very similar to the latest - Deucetone - USA PCB). I've read a few accounts of cheap quality hardware on the Chinese RATs, and very thin traces on the PCBs (apparently one reason why Keeley and Allums won't mod them) and glued on knobs (resulting in shafts pulling out of the pots when they are removed forcibly - another reason for Keeley & Allums).

The changes to the RAT circuit over the years have been minimal. The first change was very early on in the late 70's when 5 tantalum caps were replaced by electrolytics. Not a real circuit change per se but nonetheless often brought up in vintage RAT discussions. What's interesting is that the most famous RAT - the original '85 whiteface - never used any tantalums.

The other major change was the op-amp as you mentioned.

Otherwise, basically the RAT-2 in 1988 introduced some changes which were carried into the Turbo RAT. Then starting in 2002, they switched over to a new PCB and reverted back to the original circuit, which was carried into the 2003 You Dirty RAT as well as ongoing production in the USA. I don't know for certain if any late USA RAT-2s ever used this new PCB and therefore the original circuit, but I suspect they probably exist since I've seen both Turbo RATs and late Vintage RAT reissues with this PCB. The op-amp change seems to coincide with this PCB change as well. There are a couple of other slight differences in RATs but this sums it up well.

That I've been able to determine, there were 5 different USA PCBs in total. The first one was used for the production of all of the original RATs. When the RAT-2 was introduced, the second PCB was released and had the ability to accommodate both the original RAT circuit as well as the RAT-2 circuit including the DPDT true-bypass LED indicator switching circuitry. This was used in late model blackface small-box original RATs (albeit without the RAT-2 changes or the LED cicuitry), as well as the RAT-2 and Turbo RAT. When the Vintage RAT big-box reissue was released, it originally had it's own PCB which was a clone of the original PCB. In 1995, a fourth PCB was release called the "Multi-RAT" which was used in all the RATs at the time including the Vintage reissue. It was basically the same as the RAT-2 PCB but had a different layout and included the capability for a minor mod to the output buffer - I don't know if that mod actually ever made it into production however. The 5th PCB is the one currently used which started with the Deucetone. It dropped the RAT-2 circuitry and the DPDT true-bypass LED circuitry, as they also started using 3PDT switches at that point, but gained a resistor and the indicator LED vs. the original circuit and PCB. These are easy to spot in pictures because they have three different holes for the 3PDT footswitch which allow it to be used in the Deucetone as well as single RATs. It's also easy to spot the circuit change simply by counting the number of resistors - the Deucetone PCB has only 12 - the original circuit's 11 plus the LED resistor. The Chinese boards have the same number. (And yes - I've checked the values and they are all to vintage spec.) This is about when the Vintage reissue was discontinued, and if you think about it that makes sense because now all the RATs were using the original circuit anyway.

Pretty much everything I've learned is summarized here:

http://www.aronnelson.com/gallery/main.php/v/diyuser/GGBB/Multi-RAT.png

One note - apparently some Chinese RATs use a sightly different value for the cap in the variable filter, resulting in a slightly different range for the filter control.
 
Re: Jeez, prices on USA LM308 ProCo Rats have gotten stupid

I picked up a used MIC one cheap, haven't taken it apart, so I don't know about the glued knobs or the quality of the PCB. That very could be I guess, copper is expensive, if quantities are high enough (not sure how many Rats are made in a year), thinner traces could save Proco some $.

FWIW, I've had a few old MIA Rats and built a clone or two. I plugged this MIC one in and it sounded fine to me so I'm using it for now.
 
Re: Jeez, prices on USA LM308 ProCo Rats have gotten stupid

Ive never played a RAT but always wanted to.. Bud of mine had one in front of a marshall jcm800 back in the late 80s and it sounded great.. Are the new ones THAT inferior/different??


St Genesis,
So you sold the one piece?? make out good with it?
 
Re: Jeez, prices on USA LM308 ProCo Rats have gotten stupid

Not quite as much as I thought I might get, but I made a few hundred bucks. Between that and clearing out some gear I had just sitting around, I more than paid for the one I kept, so I'm happy.

St Genesis,
So you sold the one piece?? make out good with it?
 
Re: Jeez, prices on USA LM308 ProCo Rats have gotten stupid

Are the new ones THAT inferior/different??

Different sound-wise, a little, some people hear more difference than others.

Inferior quality-wise, that seem seems to be the consensus. I would say it's as inferior as your new made in Taiwan TV is to and old MIJ one. If you aren't planning on taking it apart and modding it, the new ones should be fine. I may change the chip in mine if I get around to it, I'll let you know more about the board then. But if you can find an old one cheap, it's probably worth the investment, more so than the new ones.

Of course, this is just my <$0.02, and opinions will differ greatly so take it with a grain of salt.
 
Re: Jeez, prices on USA LM308 ProCo Rats have gotten stupid

Not quite as much as I thought I might get, but I made a few hundred bucks. Between that and clearing out some gear I had just sitting around, I more than paid for the one I kept, so I'm happy.

Congrats! I never have much luck that way. Its amazing how fast the golds seem to be going up. Really a killer axe tho!

Different sound-wise, a little, some people hear more difference than others.

Inferior quality-wise, that seem seems to be the consensus. I would say it's as inferior as your new made in Taiwan TV is to and old MIJ one. If you aren't planning on taking it apart and modding it, the new ones should be fine. I may change the chip in mine if I get around to it, I'll let you know more about the board then. But if you can find an old one cheap, it's probably worth the investment, more so than the new ones.

Of course, this is just my <$0.02, and opinions will differ greatly so take it with a grain of salt.

thanks for the info! its really a shame about corp greed. I can see operating efficiently, but when it changes the sound (esp the sound that made it) then thats crap. I assume the new ones are at least in the same ballpark tonally?
 
Re: Jeez, prices on USA LM308 ProCo Rats have gotten stupid

thanks for the info! its really a shame about corp greed. I can see operating efficiently, but when it changes the sound (esp the sound that made it) then thats crap. I assume the new ones are at least in the same ballpark tonally?

Hmm, I think you missed my point, very much in the same ballpark, the circuit is the same, with the exception of using the OP07 opamp instead of the LM308n, but it's not a drastic difference, some people may notice, others may not. It's probably more prominent at full gain settings, which are almost a fuzz on a Rat, I never use those on mine. I actually think they changed the opamp while they were still MIA, not 100% sure on that. The changes to the PCB have more effect on the mod-ability than the tone, the traces go to the same places.
 
Re: Jeez, prices on USA LM308 ProCo Rats have gotten stupid

I had an early 80's small box Rat that I loved, but its non-standard shape didn't fit on my pedalboard right. I sold it (here on the SDUGF to Krall IIRC) several years ago for far less than they're bringing now.

Of course, sellers remorse kicked in, so I'm in the process of building a clone. It'll have an LM308 in it, more for snob appeal than anything else. LM308 aren't hard to get in the onesie-twosies needed for DIY projects; they're just impractical for vokume production.

I'm going to put in a socket for my op amp; maybe I can swap chips in it later, make videos comparing different op amps in the same exact pedal. I can spin that as a new testing procedure and become a YouTube guru, establishing dubious new "facts" based on shoddy scientific methods. Of course, I'd have to keep Ace quiet, but... is there any money in being a YouTube guru?

Meh, never mind. I'll just be happy to have a Rat again (an LM308 Rat), and one that fits on my pedalboard, to boot.
 
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