Keeping vintage 6-point trems in tune
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the guy who invented fire
Fuzzy. Guitars
Re: Keeping vintage 6-point trems in tune
The key to this is that you can't really have just one or two of the things mentioned here.
You need a good, well made vibrato, a well cut nut and a good set up...it all has to be there or there will be issues.
The key to this is that you can't really have just one or two of the things mentioned here.
You need a good, well made vibrato, a well cut nut and a good set up...it all has to be there or there will be issues.
jojoguitarsd
New member
Re: Keeping vintage 6-point trems in tune
Thanks Lreese, better late than never I guess,
There is no magic juice , only a fine balance ( with an old style 6screw trem) between trem action, tuning problems or not much trem action not much tuning problems. Easy to see why on this video . Agree with others make sure nut is cut right ( ie strings are not being gripped in slots that are too tight etc) , I don't personally get any problems with more or less tuner winds. The real question is. Is the bridge designed to give you the trem action you want?
Thanks Lreese, better late than never I guess,
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ItsaBass
New member
Re: Keeping vintage 6-point trems in tune
The main thing is to have realistic expectations. If you don't use them as they were designed to be used, they won't stay in tune as well as they are intended to. They aren't designed to bend notes very far off pitch, or to provide dramatic special effects. They are designed to give you a mild vibrato, of the sort that is generally achieved with the left hand by rocking your fretting finger back and forth. They also work much better if you alternate your vibrato between pulling up and neutral, as opposed to pushing down and neutral (which is how almost everyone uses them).
That said, a proper setup, and especially a properly shaped and slotted nut, will help. Most Fender guitars are improperly set up when they leave the factory, and are often even worse by the time you get them from the retailer. Gibson is even worse these days. For at least ten years now, I haven't played a brand new standard production Gibson or Fender that did not need a setup, a new nut, and fret work to be what I consider well set up. (The few exceptions were Japanese models, which seem to be set up much better from the factories, in general.)
It will also help you to minimize the number of wraps around the tuner posts, to wrap the strings in a self-locking manner, and to try your best to equalize the break angles of all the strings over the nut. That means wrapping the low E, and usually the A as well, up the post instead of down.
Locking tuners make it very easy to minimize the number of wraps around the tuner posts, and they also often come staggered, which will help you equalize the break angles over the nut. But you don't need locking tuners in order to minimize wraps. I wrap under one turn, even with standard tuners. Once I started doing that, my Strats (and all models, really) started staying in tune much, much better.
Lubrication helps too. I prefer to replace the nut with a Tusq XL nut, personally. (It must be the XL version; plain Tusq is no more beneficial to lubrication than any other plastic nut.) But I have also used graphite lock lubricant and Neo Lube No. 2 to great effect. They ae both basically the same thing, but Neo Lube is better, because the graphite is carried in alcohol, which evaporates. The graphite in the lock lubricant is carried in machine oil, so it runs all over the darned place, and takes quite some time to dry. Pencil lead is often suggested, however it is not pure graphite, but graphite powder in a clay binder. It tends to cake up, which can actually cause more binding than when stock. Neo Lube is by far the best lubrication product I've found for guitars. Here is the first Google hit about it: http://www.micromark.com/neolube-2-fl-oz,8383.html. And, most importantly, don't think that lubrication is a way around having a properly cut and slotted nut; it isn't. Even Tusq XL, graphite, and lubricated nuts need to be slotted right in order to perform their best.
The main thing is to have realistic expectations. If you don't use them as they were designed to be used, they won't stay in tune as well as they are intended to. They aren't designed to bend notes very far off pitch, or to provide dramatic special effects. They are designed to give you a mild vibrato, of the sort that is generally achieved with the left hand by rocking your fretting finger back and forth. They also work much better if you alternate your vibrato between pulling up and neutral, as opposed to pushing down and neutral (which is how almost everyone uses them).
That said, a proper setup, and especially a properly shaped and slotted nut, will help. Most Fender guitars are improperly set up when they leave the factory, and are often even worse by the time you get them from the retailer. Gibson is even worse these days. For at least ten years now, I haven't played a brand new standard production Gibson or Fender that did not need a setup, a new nut, and fret work to be what I consider well set up. (The few exceptions were Japanese models, which seem to be set up much better from the factories, in general.)
It will also help you to minimize the number of wraps around the tuner posts, to wrap the strings in a self-locking manner, and to try your best to equalize the break angles of all the strings over the nut. That means wrapping the low E, and usually the A as well, up the post instead of down.
Locking tuners make it very easy to minimize the number of wraps around the tuner posts, and they also often come staggered, which will help you equalize the break angles over the nut. But you don't need locking tuners in order to minimize wraps. I wrap under one turn, even with standard tuners. Once I started doing that, my Strats (and all models, really) started staying in tune much, much better.
Lubrication helps too. I prefer to replace the nut with a Tusq XL nut, personally. (It must be the XL version; plain Tusq is no more beneficial to lubrication than any other plastic nut.) But I have also used graphite lock lubricant and Neo Lube No. 2 to great effect. They ae both basically the same thing, but Neo Lube is better, because the graphite is carried in alcohol, which evaporates. The graphite in the lock lubricant is carried in machine oil, so it runs all over the darned place, and takes quite some time to dry. Pencil lead is often suggested, however it is not pure graphite, but graphite powder in a clay binder. It tends to cake up, which can actually cause more binding than when stock. Neo Lube is by far the best lubrication product I've found for guitars. Here is the first Google hit about it: http://www.micromark.com/neolube-2-fl-oz,8383.html. And, most importantly, don't think that lubrication is a way around having a properly cut and slotted nut; it isn't. Even Tusq XL, graphite, and lubricated nuts need to be slotted right in order to perform their best.
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Securb
One of Jerry's Kids
Re: Keeping vintage 6-point trems in tune
It all comes down to preference like everything else guitar. I prefer locking tuners to a locking nut. A locking nut will clamp down your strings better but it is not an available application for a vintage bridge (no fine tuners). In my six-point trem I have locking tuners and a LSR nut and that seems to do the trick. Even with my more modern bridges I prefer to go with my Sperzel tuners than a locking nut.
It all comes down to preference like everything else guitar. I prefer locking tuners to a locking nut. A locking nut will clamp down your strings better but it is not an available application for a vintage bridge (no fine tuners). In my six-point trem I have locking tuners and a LSR nut and that seems to do the trick. Even with my more modern bridges I prefer to go with my Sperzel tuners than a locking nut.
ItsaBass
New member
Re: Keeping vintage 6-point trems in tune
P.S. The best lockers out there, IMO, are the Gotoh vintage-style Mag-Lock H.A.P.s. They are drop-in replacements for vintage-sized tuner holes (meaning no boring of the head is required), and have the classic look, pluys height-adjustable posts. The height adjustment and locking mechanisms are some really slick ****; they are extremely well hidden and work great. They are pricey, but oh-so worth it!
P.S. The best lockers out there, IMO, are the Gotoh vintage-style Mag-Lock H.A.P.s. They are drop-in replacements for vintage-sized tuner holes (meaning no boring of the head is required), and have the classic look, pluys height-adjustable posts. The height adjustment and locking mechanisms are some really slick ****; they are extremely well hidden and work great. They are pricey, but oh-so worth it!
LReese
Sausage Gravy
Re: Keeping vintage 6-point trems in tune
For those with "F" logo diagonal screw tuners (CBS era Fenders)- Hipshot makes an adapter where you can use their locking tuners with no alteration. Works great.
I really like the stainless nut someone on this forum made - I floated out that idea to my repair guy... Hopefully he will try it.
For those with "F" logo diagonal screw tuners (CBS era Fenders)- Hipshot makes an adapter where you can use their locking tuners with no alteration. Works great.
I really like the stainless nut someone on this forum made - I floated out that idea to my repair guy... Hopefully he will try it.
Lake Placid Blues
New member
Re: Keeping vintage 6-point trems in tune
My Charvel has always had a vintage style trem, brass nut (well cut I'd say) and non-locking tuners. if you know about vintage Charvel 6 point bridges it is a lot like a Caglaham with a big brass block and the string holes the same anchoring on the bottom. It never stayed in tune very well. I tried graphite lubes, Teflon lubes (more better), roller string trees, no string trees, wrap ups and downs, graphtec saddles, four springs, three springs, off set springs, symetrical springs. Floating. Non Floating. I never ruined the guitar by putting on a Floyd though.
I got two strats with vintage style trems, graphite nuts and locking tunes, and no string trees because the tuners are graduated. They stay in tune perfectly. I cut the nuts and did the set up myself. Never need special lubes or anything.
I have a another strat with a Wilkinson two point full floating trem, graphite nut and Sperzel graduated locking tuners. It stays in tune perectly -even with dive bombs.
I have a PRS with a PRS vintage trem and locking tuners that wont stay in tune no matter what. It has a bone nut I cut myself, but maybe I need to do it better?
My Charvel has always had a vintage style trem, brass nut (well cut I'd say) and non-locking tuners. if you know about vintage Charvel 6 point bridges it is a lot like a Caglaham with a big brass block and the string holes the same anchoring on the bottom. It never stayed in tune very well. I tried graphite lubes, Teflon lubes (more better), roller string trees, no string trees, wrap ups and downs, graphtec saddles, four springs, three springs, off set springs, symetrical springs. Floating. Non Floating. I never ruined the guitar by putting on a Floyd though.
I got two strats with vintage style trems, graphite nuts and locking tunes, and no string trees because the tuners are graduated. They stay in tune perfectly. I cut the nuts and did the set up myself. Never need special lubes or anything.
I have a another strat with a Wilkinson two point full floating trem, graphite nut and Sperzel graduated locking tuners. It stays in tune perectly -even with dive bombs.
I have a PRS with a PRS vintage trem and locking tuners that wont stay in tune no matter what. It has a bone nut I cut myself, but maybe I need to do it better?
jojoguitarsd
New member
Re: Keeping vintage 6-point trems in tune
using a capo ( quite tight) on the first fret will take the nut, tuning pegs out of the equation. You can then test, find out the size of the problem as far as the bridge is concerned. Happy findings
using a capo ( quite tight) on the first fret will take the nut, tuning pegs out of the equation. You can then test, find out the size of the problem as far as the bridge is concerned. Happy findings
Re: Keeping vintage 6-point trems in tune
I should be picking up my guitr today that will now have the Super V double locking tremolo replacement unit..... It has had a Hipshot 2 point modern trem, bone nut and Hipshot locking tunners... like it has been mentioned, everything must be in balance with one another for it to work well. The weather in Boston is unpredictable and there are many variables to take into account for maintaining a vintage style trem unit and stability. I'll be posting a review of the upgrade as soon as I can. It's basically a drop in replacement for Strats with trems... new type of locking nut with a new bridge that also has locking tuners... I've heard it has a bit of a stiffer feel, but I am not too worried about that... it is not cheap though.... $350.... but if you add up all of the cost for visiting a tech to address the fussy needs of an old style trem and possibly some upgrades you may try like locking tunners, lubes, tremsetters, new saddles and/or new nuts and installation, the total cost is not so far out...
I should be picking up my guitr today that will now have the Super V double locking tremolo replacement unit..... It has had a Hipshot 2 point modern trem, bone nut and Hipshot locking tunners... like it has been mentioned, everything must be in balance with one another for it to work well. The weather in Boston is unpredictable and there are many variables to take into account for maintaining a vintage style trem unit and stability. I'll be posting a review of the upgrade as soon as I can. It's basically a drop in replacement for Strats with trems... new type of locking nut with a new bridge that also has locking tuners... I've heard it has a bit of a stiffer feel, but I am not too worried about that... it is not cheap though.... $350.... but if you add up all of the cost for visiting a tech to address the fussy needs of an old style trem and possibly some upgrades you may try like locking tunners, lubes, tremsetters, new saddles and/or new nuts and installation, the total cost is not so far out...
Vasshu the humanoid typhoon
Unseen
Re: Keeping vintage 6-point trems in tune
Hmm have used 6 points vintage stuff for years.
Sat up the buggers, well cut saddle, friction points smoothed out, small adjustments to the six screws, mostly the middle four slightly raised over the two outer ones, no tighten them up the outer two of them either.
Always set for floating action.
String guide raised, or removed if that was possible, if had to stay on, the friction surfaces smoothed out with watersanding paper.
Used the same kind of strings when possible, maybe had to look it over every passing year or so, mostly doing nothing.
Never had much trouble with any of them, mostly when I was a inexperienced kid I had issues, learned by trial and error.
Never caused me much extra work, nothing but normal maintenance really.
Even some of the cheap POS ones could be used, still got one on my CV strat bang around caster....have not gotten around to dump one of my Gotoh bridges into that one yet....it works and stays well in tune!
Hmm have used 6 points vintage stuff for years.
Sat up the buggers, well cut saddle, friction points smoothed out, small adjustments to the six screws, mostly the middle four slightly raised over the two outer ones, no tighten them up the outer two of them either.
Always set for floating action.
String guide raised, or removed if that was possible, if had to stay on, the friction surfaces smoothed out with watersanding paper.
Used the same kind of strings when possible, maybe had to look it over every passing year or so, mostly doing nothing.
Never had much trouble with any of them, mostly when I was a inexperienced kid I had issues, learned by trial and error.
Never caused me much extra work, nothing but normal maintenance really.
Even some of the cheap POS ones could be used, still got one on my CV strat bang around caster....have not gotten around to dump one of my Gotoh bridges into that one yet....it works and stays well in tune!