keys and scales.

K

kelvin

New member
hi,

i want to know more about the scales.

for example a song in the key of C, we got :

c ionian (c major),
d dorian,
e phrygian,
f lydian,
g mixolydian,
a aeolian (a minor),
b locrian,

c major pentatonic (which is AM petatonic that starts on different root).

is that right?

do we got more avaiable? more pentatonic scales?
 
Re: keys and scales.

yes you are right about that, and if you play the aeolian say in e minor(starting at the 12th fret) im thinking by using G as the root note in that scale it would be in G major... im currently learning this so im not so sure if im correct but when i think about it it makes sense.

and those arent pentatonic scales they are called modes which fit over the pentatonics adding extra notes.

if you want to play in another key you just move lets say the aeolian to a different fret so it makes that fret the root note, like say if you move it to the third fret(g) it makes it in the key of G minor, then you just apply the rest of the modes(scales you wrote down) around the aeolian.

i hope this answered your question
 
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Re: keys and scales.

Wow... now I'm really confused..I never fully understood this key malarkey..
 
Re: keys and scales.

It depends on which chords you are using. I really use the pentatonic for melody and then full scales for soloing. Only using pentatonic can get boring and countryish. Give us the chord progression and we can help you a lot more.
 
Re: keys and scales.

A Pentatonic scale is literally a FIVE-note scale... Hence the term pent, which means, you guessed it, FIVE....

In ANY major key, you simply ommit the 4th and 7th intervals....

For instance... I will use the key of C, as it has no accidental (sharps or flats)...

C Major
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1
C D E F G A B C

C Major Pent
1 2 3 5 6 1
C D E G A C


In the minor keys, you will do the same for the Minor Pent... I will use A Minor... It is the relative minor of C, so it also has no accidentals...

A Minor
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1
A B C D E F G A

A Minor Pent
1 2 3 5 6 1
A B C E F A

FYI.... a major scale can be constructed using the following formula...
Whole-Whole-Half-Whole-Whole-Whole-Half

By that, I am referring to the steps in between notes within a scale...

Using the C Major again, you would start on C

C to D is a Whole Step
D to E is a Whole Step
E to F is a naturally occuring Half Step
F to G is a Whole Step
G to A is a Whole Step
A to B is a Whole Step
B to C is a naturally occuring Half Step

That being said, you can take any note and construct the scale for that key...

G is the fifth of C Major, so we will do the key of G

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1
G A B C D E F# G

G to A - W
A to B - W
B to C - H
C to D - W
D to E - W
E to F - Half, so we have to sharpen the note to F#
E to F# - W
F# to G - H

By raising that 7th one half step, we have met the requirements of the major scale pattern....

There is a great deal more than that, but with the information here, you can construct all major keys....

Hope this helped clear any confusion...

Allen
 
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Re: keys and scales.

One more thing.. One of the many cool things about playing guitar, is that the shapes are movable... The pattern you use to play a C major pent can be moved up two frets, or a whole step, and applied to create the D Major Pent.... Same goes for all other chords and scales...

Also, to show the relationship between chords and scales... You use the Scale to creat a chord... For instance we will use the C Major again...

To creat a chord, you simply stack 3rds...

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1
C D E F G A B C

1 3 5
C E G

Whaddya know! The intervals create the notes used in the C major scale... In case you are lost, a 3rd is the interval you get when you count the current note and move to 3...

1 if the first, 2 is the second, and 3 is the third....
3 is the first, 4 is the second, and 5 is the third.....

IF you wanted to build a C Major 7 Chord, you simply stack another 3rd....

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1
C E G B

Since the quality of the 3rd sets the quality of the chord, you can flatten the 3rd to get a C Minor.... However, to fully understand this, it would be best to use the formula for the minor scale so you can better see the relationship....
 
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Re: keys and scales.

tone4days said:
um, i play A minor pentatonic as A C D E G A ...

have i been doing this wrong forever?
Click to expand...
If it gets you the tones you are seeking, then no...

The formula for the standard A Minor Pent is simply built by using the A Minor Scale and removing the 4th and 7th Intervals...

The scale you describe above is built using the A minor scale, but you are using the 7 instead of the 6... That is more of a blues technique....

Again, not wrong, just not the "textbook" application of the A minor pent...

If you play the C major pent, but start on the 6th, or the A, then play the same patterns, you have the A minor pent....
 
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Re: keys and scales.

tone4days said:
um, i play A minor pentatonic as A C D E G A ...

have i been doing this wrong forever?
Click to expand...

Thats the way I've always played penatonics... take out the 2nd and 6th. I've been taught that way forever and even books I have read say to do it that way.
 
Re: keys and scales.

One of the tips I give my students to really help with improvisation is to map out the chord changes, then write out the scales of choice for those chords. You can usually find a key center where there is a half-step change from one key to the next. The note you move to should be exclusive to the new chord in order to really flavor the changes. If you use that as your pivot point and play you leads from there, it will accentuate the changes in chords while easing your ability to track the changes without having to think about them so much... More of your attention is placed on playing, rather than thinking...

I am going to use Blues in the Key of G, because I have one in front of me to help speed this post up....

12-Bar Blues in Key of G

[G7] [G7] [G7] [G7]
[C7] [C7] [G7] [G7]
[D7] [C7] [G7] [D7]

To make this simple, we will focus on the Blues Scales for this key... Obviously, in keeping with the changes, you will play G blues for the first 4 measures, C Blues over the 5th and 6th measures, etc....

G Blues
1 b3 4 b5 b b7 1
G Bb C Db D F G

C Blues
1 b3 4 b5 5 b7 1
C Eb F Gb G Bb C

D Blues
1 b3 4 b5 5 b7 1
D F G Ab A C D

For the change from G Blues to C Blues, you have the following options lending themselves....

G to Gb, D to Eb, and F to Gb... These new targets notes are not in the previous scale, so the listeners can hear the chord changes, and the player can certainly FEEL them....


From C Blues back to G Blues, you simply use the reciprocal of the above...

Eb to D, or C to Db would bring the most noticeable changes, though


From G Blues to D Blues....

G to Ab, or Bb to A really accentuate the changes....


From D Blues to C Blues...

D to Eb, F to Gb, G to Gb, or A to Bb will spice things up


Of course, these are just methods to help improve... Those who seek constant improvement will keep trying other methods to become well-rounded musicians...
 
Re: keys and scales.

vinterland said:
Thats the way I've always played penatonics... take out the 2nd and 6th. I've been taught that way forever and even books I have read say to do it that way.
Click to expand...
As I said, if it gets the results you want, then it isnt wrong... The reason "books" say that, is because the popular trend bases their scales off the blues sound... Any 5-note scale is a pentatonic, so there is no right or wrong answer....

However, if you spend time in a classroom studying music theory, you will find that ALL scales are compared to their major counterparts, to include pentatonics... This ensures that the musician can identify the inner voice movement and how to manipulate that relationship. From there, you get a plethora of scales/modes, and other sequences that are sure to find their way in someone's publication if they perceive a profit in doing so....
 
Re: keys and scales.

gordon_39422 said:
The formula for the standard A Minor Pent is simply built by using the A Minor Scale and removing the 4th and 7th Intervals...
Click to expand...

No

The overwhelming majority of musicians will refer to a 'Standard Minor Pent. Scale' with the scale tones 1 b3 4 5 b7.
 
Re: keys and scales.

thats pretty crazy, changing to completely different keys for each chord? I usually just hit target notes within my regular blues scales to accentuate chord changes instead of changing keys altogether when another chord comes up.

And i dont know where you got that pentatonic, seafoamer is right about this one. Being a berklee graduate and having a masters, i think he's spent time in a classroom.....

No hard feelings :)
 
Re: keys and scales.

Standard is relative... Many years ago, the "standard" transmision was a manual one with 4 gears... Now the "standard" transmission is an automatic with at least 4 gear, one being an overdrive, if not 5 with an OD....

After the 80's, "everyone" uses the "standard" blues reference of [1, b3, 4, 5, b7]....

The fact still remains that A minor is the Relative Minor of C Major.... When constructing a C Major Pentatonic, or any other Major Pentatonic, you omit the 4h and 7th intervals... The tones you get will produce the "My Girl" theme.... The same formula still applies to minor scales... Omit the 4th and 7th, or the "Sweet" tones to get the pentatonic... The original use of this chord was simplicity....

Berklee is just another institute of music... Alebeit a prestigious one, but an institute nonetheless... You can take from that only what you invest...

As I said originally, a (PENT)atonic is simply a 5-chord scale... If you play blues-based scales, then you will probably favor the b7.... When studying the basics of Music Theory, you will probably analyze scales and modes compared to their major counterparts... This isn't a democracy based on opinions... I am citing facts based on historical studies...

If you get the results you desire from the Minor Pentatonic with a b7, then you are playing a Minor Pent with a b7... You still have to know what the "textbook" version is to know what the b7 is to begin with... Otherwise, what 7 is it that you are flattening?

Berklee Grad, Atlanta Institue Grad, or even a Grad of the GIT on the West Coast....
 
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Re: keys and scales.

Quencho092 said:
thats pretty crazy, changing to completely different keys for each chord? I usually just hit target notes within my regular blues scales to accentuate chord changes instead of changing keys altogether when another chord comes up.

No hard feelings :)
Click to expand...
It is all relative... If, for some reason you have an easire time remembering completely knew modes and scales, then go for it... I can analyze scales for the keys they are in, and know their patterns. It is more of a practical approach that comes from the study of scales/modes, rather than the over-simplification of them.... What matters in the end, is your ability to apply them to the fretboard...

You arent changin to different keys, anyway... You are playing the changes... The composition of each chord in a key IS different... If you can't expand upon that, you better have the syncopation and unique rhythm of SRV, Jimi, and others who set the tone for the Blues Scales... Otherwise you might want to re-analyze the styles of Slash, Clapton, Beck, and others who are aware that when a chord changes, you should play the scale relative to that chord....

As far as hard feelings, none taken... We are all artists, with different approaches to the same 12 notes! Our differences is what enables us to come up with our individual contribtuions to the art of music!
 
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Re: keys and scales.

Just to clarify, Seafomer, I am impressed with your studies... I have 4 3-inch binders full of notes I took while attending AIM, and wish that I had the opportunity to study at Berklee. I was accepted based on my submitted videotape, but couldn't come up with the dough....

I was not aware of you studies with Berklee, and would love to talk shop... Possibly on a OM basis, so as not to stir too much confusion when you say "Green" and I say "Yellow + Blue"... I tend to teach lessons on the side that excludes presumptions, whereas, apparently, others like to assume everything based on partial statements...

While I have always enjoyed your colorful posts, I am now intrigued...

Carl Culpepper, our Lead Instructor for the Guitar Department, graduated from GIT, and severl of our other instructors were from Berklee... But, I have always appreciated those who dedicate their lives to studying rather than teaching... It seems a sense of humility is present that will tend to fade as tenure develops with instruction...

I hope no offense can be interpreted from my posts... I am sure that you are aware of the many analogies and comparisons that can become of music...

Keep in Touch,
Allen
 
Re: keys and scales.

In an effort to ensure that I am not citing misunderstood reference, I went back and consulted all materials I have been provided over my short-lived studies in music theory. NONE of them refer to the Pentatonic as a sequence of intervals involving [1, b3, 5, b7]. They ALL refer to a Pent as [1, 3, 5, 6[ ommitting the 4 and 7... Obviously the quality of the 3 will reflect the quality of the scale... As such, the quality of the 3 in a minor scale is flat in realtion to the major...

I would definitley consider re-analyzing my studies, if someone could produce substantial evidence otherwise...
 
Re: keys and scales.

I briefly scanned your above posts. What I think ur missing is this: When you say Minor pentatonic, this is 1 b3 4 5 b7, which is the 1 2 3 5 6 scale tones of it's relative major. But an A Minor Pent is A C D E G, Not A B C E F. If u go into a recording session, or on the bandstand and the band leader has written an A Minor Vamp with the specific instructions on it that he wants an A Minor pentatonic solo over it, then he wants A C D E G kind of lines played over it. You would be wrong (& possibly fired) if you start tossing lines with a scale outlining A B C E F.

Now a "MAJOR" pentatonic certainly is 1 2 3 5 6. That is the "MY Girl" Bass line. And it's sound is NOT intended to be Minor.
 
Re: keys and scales.

This is where concession occurs... I apologize for my oversight, and the wast of your time... (I did, however, jack my post count up a few)....

You are absolutely right, SF, when I did the conversion to the relative minor, in an effort to post rapidly, I forgot to prove my conversion...

Thanks for pointing that out.... It was always the 1+1 in scenarios that caused me to fail math... Not the ax2 +bx + c = 0.... Thanks again!!

The crappy thing about it all.... I was sitting here playing the actualy sequence correctly.... Funny how pnemonics take over rational thought....

Sorry , again, for the confusion, guys....

Allen
 
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