Kiesel (Carvin) Guitars now use 6-pole bobbins and still in double cream
- Thread starter KeeperOS
- Start date
Kiesel (Carvin) Guitars now use 6-pole bobbins and still in double cream
I've got an old Ibanez Magnum Pro black that used to be my dad's with 2 double cream humbuckers. I need to fix the wiring though as its not functioning. That thing is a heavy mother trucker though. I call it the "boat anchor". The tone of that guitar was always so awesome. Here's a pic, but it's just one I found on the Internet. I should fix the wiring, my dad did some custom job with a boost switch.
I've got an old Ibanez Magnum Pro black that used to be my dad's with 2 double cream humbuckers. I need to fix the wiring though as its not functioning. That thing is a heavy mother trucker though. I call it the "boat anchor". The tone of that guitar was always so awesome. Here's a pic, but it's just one I found on the Internet. I should fix the wiring, my dad did some custom job with a boost switch.
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Re: Kiesel (Carvin) Guitars now use 6-pole bobbins and still in double cream
Personally, I kinda like the parchment, along with white or black (I dig satin finished black covers, too), and I am not really influenced by the 70s cream look, so it doesn't matter to me. I get why people like cream. I am thinking that newer players (or, really, younger players) dig black a lot more than anything, since most guitars sold probably come with black. And not many of their heroes today are using cream.
Personally, I kinda like the parchment, along with white or black (I dig satin finished black covers, too), and I am not really influenced by the 70s cream look, so it doesn't matter to me. I get why people like cream. I am thinking that newer players (or, really, younger players) dig black a lot more than anything, since most guitars sold probably come with black. And not many of their heroes today are using cream.
dystrust
Well-known member
Re: Kiesel (Carvin) Guitars now use 6-pole bobbins and still in double cream
Whenever I see that color combo, the first thing I think of is Slash's Derrig, aka the Appetite for Destruction guitar.
Well not that young anymore but FWIW my all-time-favorite combo was the "EVH zebra" i.e. both pickups have the cream closest to the neck and the black closest to the bridge:
Whenever I see that color combo, the first thing I think of is Slash's Derrig, aka the Appetite for Destruction guitar.
GilmourD
Burritotoneologist
Re: Kiesel (Carvin) Guitars now use 6-pole bobbins and still in double cream
From what I've been seeing Jeff Kiesel has been slowly trying to make the whole Carvin experience a complete joke.
For instance, he put out a video on social media claiming that the factory had been robbed because they came in and noticed some guitars missing. No such thing happened. What actually happened was that some not-so-bright sales people sold guitars to people overseas that used illegitimately gotten credit card information to make the purchase. That's a HUGE difference from "Oh, I walked in and noticed guitars were missing." Check with your shipping department next time.
Also, somebody did a special order from them in a very specific color. Spoke with Jeff, Jeff said they could do it. The guitar came out completely different but Jeff liked it so he shipped it to the customer anyway. The guy was upset when he received the guitar in the wrong color and was told he would not be given a refund or a replacement guitar in the color he actually ordered. Guy posted this on a forum. Jeff Kiesel replied to that thread basically calling the guy a PITA and that he liked the color so the customer should be happy.
This decision to abandon the 22-pole pickup and continue offering them in double cream is probably his decision.
Don't be surprised if Kiesel/Carvin is gone in a couple years. Fortunately the amp division split off from them. Ever since the split customers seem to be not so happy.
From what I've been seeing Jeff Kiesel has been slowly trying to make the whole Carvin experience a complete joke.
For instance, he put out a video on social media claiming that the factory had been robbed because they came in and noticed some guitars missing. No such thing happened. What actually happened was that some not-so-bright sales people sold guitars to people overseas that used illegitimately gotten credit card information to make the purchase. That's a HUGE difference from "Oh, I walked in and noticed guitars were missing." Check with your shipping department next time.
Also, somebody did a special order from them in a very specific color. Spoke with Jeff, Jeff said they could do it. The guitar came out completely different but Jeff liked it so he shipped it to the customer anyway. The guy was upset when he received the guitar in the wrong color and was told he would not be given a refund or a replacement guitar in the color he actually ordered. Guy posted this on a forum. Jeff Kiesel replied to that thread basically calling the guy a PITA and that he liked the color so the customer should be happy.
This decision to abandon the 22-pole pickup and continue offering them in double cream is probably his decision.
Don't be surprised if Kiesel/Carvin is gone in a couple years. Fortunately the amp division split off from them. Ever since the split customers seem to be not so happy.
KeeperOS
Active member
Re: Kiesel (Carvin) Guitars now use 6-pole bobbins and still in double cream
Slightly off topic but ok.
While I have neither love nor hate for Jeff, I was dumbfounded when I read about that color situation and after a quick google I found the thread you were referring to.
http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/se...tomatch-gone-wrong-final-update-5-3-16-a.html
In my eyes they both screwed the pooch, The customer originally posted half-truths (notice how the original photograph was purposefully overexposed when compared to Jeff's photo) that reasonably got Jeff pissed off (which apparently isn't very hard to do as this guy appears to be all attitude) whereas Jeff did agree to photomatch the guitar from the samples and did fail to do so (regardless of whether I or Jeff personally liked this version better than the Agile's) and what's more, even if he indeed might have had valid reasons for refusing the full refund, I do believe he should have conceded that he had failed to get the photomatch right and thus should have at least refunded the specific upcharge (the guy said 300USD ?!?!)
Now the robbery thing, I would assume he jumped the gun before checking what happened, that or someone wouldn't 'fess up about what he/she did and he believed them.
Granted he should have checked and double checked before publicizing anything, let alone posting it on the internet for everyone to see...
Slightly off topic but ok.
While I have neither love nor hate for Jeff, I was dumbfounded when I read about that color situation and after a quick google I found the thread you were referring to.
http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/se...tomatch-gone-wrong-final-update-5-3-16-a.html
In my eyes they both screwed the pooch, The customer originally posted half-truths (notice how the original photograph was purposefully overexposed when compared to Jeff's photo) that reasonably got Jeff pissed off (which apparently isn't very hard to do as this guy appears to be all attitude) whereas Jeff did agree to photomatch the guitar from the samples and did fail to do so (regardless of whether I or Jeff personally liked this version better than the Agile's) and what's more, even if he indeed might have had valid reasons for refusing the full refund, I do believe he should have conceded that he had failed to get the photomatch right and thus should have at least refunded the specific upcharge (the guy said 300USD ?!?!)
Now the robbery thing, I would assume he jumped the gun before checking what happened, that or someone wouldn't 'fess up about what he/she did and he believed them.
Granted he should have checked and double checked before publicizing anything, let alone posting it on the internet for everyone to see...
WolfeMacleod
New member
Re: Kiesel (Carvin) Guitars now use 6-pole bobbins and still in double cream
Sure, you can trademark colors. As long as it's not aesthetically valuable or desirable, puts competitors at signitifact disadvantages (such as Ford trademarking black cars) or has any other "function" other than a source identifier. T-Mobile's magenta is neither, and neither is the brown UPS truck.
However, John Deere Green sure is. because farmers wanted to color-coordinate their equipment. And it might be a second time, too.
Mercury Brunswick's black outboard boat motors? A functional color because the color black is harmonious with virtually all colors, and because it makes the motor appear smaller when mounted.
Red soles of women's shoes... hmm..
See, trademark law has this little thing called "Aesthetic functionality doctrine" and courts have again and again ruled....
that the doctrine of aesthetic functionality is a valid defense in the Second Circuit in cases “where protection of the mark significantly undermines competitors’ ability to compete in the relevant market” (emphasis in original). A mark is aesthetically functional if granting exclusive protection to the feature “would put competitors at a significant non-reputation-related disadvantage,” citing TrafFix Devices, Inc. v. Marketing Displays, Inc., 532 U.S. 23, 32-33 (2001).
And then there's this "regular" functionality doctrine , too, which bars things like marks that affect cost or ease of manufacture.
In 2005, Dimarzio attempted a similar trademark, and was denied registrations because of functionality. Want to read the rejection? It's right here.
So.. while, yes, colors can be trademarks, functional colors cannot. And I can guarantee you that guitar players are a zillion time more aesthetically minded about their instruments than farmers are about their farm equipment.
Sure, you can trademark colors. As long as it's not aesthetically valuable or desirable, puts competitors at signitifact disadvantages (such as Ford trademarking black cars) or has any other "function" other than a source identifier. T-Mobile's magenta is neither, and neither is the brown UPS truck.
However, John Deere Green sure is. because farmers wanted to color-coordinate their equipment. And it might be a second time, too.
Mercury Brunswick's black outboard boat motors? A functional color because the color black is harmonious with virtually all colors, and because it makes the motor appear smaller when mounted.
Red soles of women's shoes... hmm..
See, trademark law has this little thing called "Aesthetic functionality doctrine" and courts have again and again ruled....
that the doctrine of aesthetic functionality is a valid defense in the Second Circuit in cases “where protection of the mark significantly undermines competitors’ ability to compete in the relevant market” (emphasis in original). A mark is aesthetically functional if granting exclusive protection to the feature “would put competitors at a significant non-reputation-related disadvantage,” citing TrafFix Devices, Inc. v. Marketing Displays, Inc., 532 U.S. 23, 32-33 (2001).
And then there's this "regular" functionality doctrine , too, which bars things like marks that affect cost or ease of manufacture.
In 2005, Dimarzio attempted a similar trademark, and was denied registrations because of functionality. Want to read the rejection? It's right here.
So.. while, yes, colors can be trademarks, functional colors cannot. And I can guarantee you that guitar players are a zillion time more aesthetically minded about their instruments than farmers are about their farm equipment.
Johnny the Kid
Shaunofthedeadologist
Re: Kiesel (Carvin) Guitars now use 6-pole bobbins and still in double cream
Wolfe, I was searching for that denied trademark registration for DMZ and found you on the Racer X Forums talking about this. Did DMZ try to trademark mirrored bobbins or a pickup cover? Because as far as I know, DMZ is the only ompany making mirrored bobbins anyways.
Wolfe, I was searching for that denied trademark registration for DMZ and found you on the Racer X Forums talking about this. Did DMZ try to trademark mirrored bobbins or a pickup cover? Because as far as I know, DMZ is the only ompany making mirrored bobbins anyways.
jmh151
Active member
Re: Kiesel (Carvin) Guitars now use 6-pole bobbins and still in double cream
Slightly off topic, but I've been a fan of Carvin / Kiesel for years, and always wanted to pull the trigger to get one, as they seemed just as good as Jackson USA or PRS...
Until I find them popping up used in stores... I can't gel with the profile of their necks, and the fit and finish is equal to a high end Schecter Diamond series import...
They make beautiful guitars, but the feel and tone just isn't there
Slightly off topic, but I've been a fan of Carvin / Kiesel for years, and always wanted to pull the trigger to get one, as they seemed just as good as Jackson USA or PRS...
Until I find them popping up used in stores... I can't gel with the profile of their necks, and the fit and finish is equal to a high end Schecter Diamond series import...
They make beautiful guitars, but the feel and tone just isn't there
WolfeMacleod
New member
Re: Kiesel (Carvin) Guitars now use 6-pole bobbins and still in double cream
Mirrored bobbins. And, they're not the only ones that do them. I've done a few. WSC and others do them, too. They're a PITA to do because the plating makes the bobbin electrically conductive, which would it itself be a utilitarian function (additional shielding) and thus not registerable (supposing the examine attorney knows anything at all about how a pickup works... which most don't)
I don't recall ever posting on Racer X forums.. got a link (nevermind, found it)
Mirrored bobbins. And, they're not the only ones that do them. I've done a few. WSC and others do them, too. They're a PITA to do because the plating makes the bobbin electrically conductive, which would it itself be a utilitarian function (additional shielding) and thus not registerable (supposing the examine attorney knows anything at all about how a pickup works... which most don't)
I don't recall ever posting on Racer X forums.. got a link (nevermind, found it)
Re: Kiesel (Carvin) Guitars now use 6-pole bobbins and still in double cream
The worst thing about the DC tm is that Dimarzio didn't 'invent' it initially. Copying an idea then protecting your stealings is the lowest of the low. Using our example earlier, imagine if T-mobile had copied another smaller communication firms colour, then tried to trademark that magenta then insist that the smaller firm couldn't now use it without paying.
I wonder if Carvin is paying for the DC.
The worst thing about the DC tm is that Dimarzio didn't 'invent' it initially. Copying an idea then protecting your stealings is the lowest of the low. Using our example earlier, imagine if T-mobile had copied another smaller communication firms colour, then tried to trademark that magenta then insist that the smaller firm couldn't now use it without paying.
I wonder if Carvin is paying for the DC.
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Johnny the Kid
Shaunofthedeadologist
Re: Kiesel (Carvin) Guitars now use 6-pole bobbins and still in double cream
The way they got around this is by saying that Gibson didn't intend to make the bobbins double cream. Gibson never fought back on it, so DMZ was awarded the trademark. From what I saw on Wolfe's Racer X post (link below), DMZ shouldn't have it anyways because you cannot trademark something that affects cost of production negatively. For example, if black bobbins were cheaper to produce than other colors, you cannot trademark black bobbins because that would force your competition to pay more for other colors. Wolfe pointed out that at the time of the trademark, DMZ were paying less for cream bobbins than for other colors. Their trademark is built upon shady dealing after shady dealing. And I don't even care for exposed bobbins anyways. I think covers look so much classier, but it sucks that you guys are being screwed by a company like that. Dimarzio also has a trademark on PAF, though I'm not sure how companies get around that when they describe their pickups as having a PAF sound. I think that the trademark only applies to the actual names of the products, but I could be wrong.
http://www.racerxband.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=19389
The way they got around this is by saying that Gibson didn't intend to make the bobbins double cream. Gibson never fought back on it, so DMZ was awarded the trademark. From what I saw on Wolfe's Racer X post (link below), DMZ shouldn't have it anyways because you cannot trademark something that affects cost of production negatively. For example, if black bobbins were cheaper to produce than other colors, you cannot trademark black bobbins because that would force your competition to pay more for other colors. Wolfe pointed out that at the time of the trademark, DMZ were paying less for cream bobbins than for other colors. Their trademark is built upon shady dealing after shady dealing. And I don't even care for exposed bobbins anyways. I think covers look so much classier, but it sucks that you guys are being screwed by a company like that. Dimarzio also has a trademark on PAF, though I'm not sure how companies get around that when they describe their pickups as having a PAF sound. I think that the trademark only applies to the actual names of the products, but I could be wrong.
http://www.racerxband.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=19389
kramersteen
PowerMetalRaph
Re: Kiesel (Carvin) Guitars now use 6-pole bobbins and still in double cream
Kiesel are ****.
Kiesel are ****.
KeeperOS
Active member
Re: Kiesel (Carvin) Guitars now use 6-pole bobbins and still in double cream
I'm only guessing here but if a company says their product is designed to emulate the original P.A.F. (with the dots) or Patent Applied For pickups then DMZ can do nothing about it as they are referring to a different non-DMZ product that pre-existed their trademark.
I'm only guessing here but if a company says their product is designed to emulate the original P.A.F. (with the dots) or Patent Applied For pickups then DMZ can do nothing about it as they are referring to a different non-DMZ product that pre-existed their trademark.
Re: Kiesel (Carvin) Guitars now use 6-pole bobbins and still in double cream
That kinda sucks.....not only as ist an evasion, but a lie too. The bobbins were originally black sure. But as soon as the black wasn't available from the supplier Gibson decided to use the same cream/ivory as the pickup rings. If thats not a deliberate decision then I can't find any decision that is.
Like many other players with integrity, Larry gets none of my money due to his greed.
That kinda sucks.....not only as ist an evasion, but a lie too. The bobbins were originally black sure. But as soon as the black wasn't available from the supplier Gibson decided to use the same cream/ivory as the pickup rings. If thats not a deliberate decision then I can't find any decision that is.
Like many other players with integrity, Larry gets none of my money due to his greed.
Re: Kiesel (Carvin) Guitars now use 6-pole bobbins and still in double cream
perhaps TMobile's magenta isn't trademarked in the USA, but it surely is here in the Netherlands.
and you corroborated exactly what I said only with more detail
perhaps TMobile's magenta isn't trademarked in the USA, but it surely is here in the Netherlands.
and you corroborated exactly what I said only with more detail
WolfeMacleod
New member
Re: Kiesel (Carvin) Guitars now use 6-pole bobbins and still in double cream
Yes, T-mobile's magenta does appear to be trademarked in the USA. But keep in mind, that the way they use that color is not functional in any way other than a brand identifier. Unlike Dimarzio's use of color, which serves as more than a brand identifier. Even Christian Louboutin's red shoe soles were limited to being only valid when the sole contrasts with the rest of the shoe.
I'm not sure if you thought I corroborated that Dimarzio's trademark is legitimate or not. Did you read any of the links I posted? Cause those kinda shows that it isn't.
perhaps TMobile's magenta isn't trademarked in the USA, but it surely is here in the Netherlands.
and you corroborated exactly what I said only with more detail
Yes, T-mobile's magenta does appear to be trademarked in the USA. But keep in mind, that the way they use that color is not functional in any way other than a brand identifier. Unlike Dimarzio's use of color, which serves as more than a brand identifier. Even Christian Louboutin's red shoe soles were limited to being only valid when the sole contrasts with the rest of the shoe.
I'm not sure if you thought I corroborated that Dimarzio's trademark is legitimate or not. Did you read any of the links I posted? Cause those kinda shows that it isn't.
Kamanda~SD
New member
Re: Kiesel (Carvin) Guitars now use 6-pole bobbins and still in double cream
Continuing OT with the colour thing....that's not even close. There isn't any green in there at all.
My friend got a Carvin awhile back, spent some good money on it and MAN was it a nice axe. Always had them in the back of my mind until the Carvin/ Kiesel split thingy.
Continuing OT with the colour thing....that's not even close. There isn't any green in there at all.
My friend got a Carvin awhile back, spent some good money on it and MAN was it a nice axe. Always had them in the back of my mind until the Carvin/ Kiesel split thingy.