Klon . . . is it really all that !
- Thread starter SlowGroove
- Start date
aleclee
Major General GAS
Re: Klon . . . is it really all that !
The hard part isn't building things (though a few manufacturers manage to frak that up), it's coming up with a piece of kit that actually sounds good to a lot of people without sounding like every other box at Guitarget. After a builder drops a few hundred hours conceiving, designing, testing and tweaking, it might be nice if he actually got compensated for the time he invested in his creation. When sales volume is measured in hundreds of units per year, the per-unit cost of that R&D is steep. If people aren't willing to pay it, the builder either goes under or builds as a hobby. If the builder is sufficiently lucky/talented, people will pay a premium and life is good. . .at least until people start asking "Why do people pay so much for a few bucks worth of parts?" and cloners get involved.
That's one reason why rip-off builders piss me off: They don't spend their time coming up with a new design or even a new take on an existing one, they just duplicate someone else's hard work...and all too often, people reward them for their larceny. Much as I'm frustrated by builders who "goop" their circuits, I can definitely understand why they feel compelled to do so.
You're forgetting one very important expense. Unless you can come up with a schematic for an awesome-sounding pedal off the top of your head, there's a fair bit of R&D in putting together a non-clone pedal.
The hard part isn't building things (though a few manufacturers manage to frak that up), it's coming up with a piece of kit that actually sounds good to a lot of people without sounding like every other box at Guitarget. After a builder drops a few hundred hours conceiving, designing, testing and tweaking, it might be nice if he actually got compensated for the time he invested in his creation. When sales volume is measured in hundreds of units per year, the per-unit cost of that R&D is steep. If people aren't willing to pay it, the builder either goes under or builds as a hobby. If the builder is sufficiently lucky/talented, people will pay a premium and life is good. . .at least until people start asking "Why do people pay so much for a few bucks worth of parts?" and cloners get involved.
That's one reason why rip-off builders piss me off: They don't spend their time coming up with a new design or even a new take on an existing one, they just duplicate someone else's hard work...and all too often, people reward them for their larceny. Much as I'm frustrated by builders who "goop" their circuits, I can definitely understand why they feel compelled to do so.
fatigueofheart
New member
Re: Klon . . . is it really all that !
Most people are idiots if they use the Klon as a straight overdrive. Even though the Klon is such and has the ability to, people that know what they're doing buy it to use as a tone conditioner, to fatten up their tone. You can tell in the vid after awhile, the Bad Monkey didn't get as fat as the Klon and he started to matched the Klon with the bad monkey's tone. Is it worth the price? If you like the fatness and depth comes from the Klon then it's worth it. You can replicate the tone with some work from a combination of other pedals, but you end up paying more or close to than a new klon and plus the extra time and work it takes you to dial it in might not be worth the effort.
Most people are idiots if they use the Klon as a straight overdrive. Even though the Klon is such and has the ability to, people that know what they're doing buy it to use as a tone conditioner, to fatten up their tone. You can tell in the vid after awhile, the Bad Monkey didn't get as fat as the Klon and he started to matched the Klon with the bad monkey's tone. Is it worth the price? If you like the fatness and depth comes from the Klon then it's worth it. You can replicate the tone with some work from a combination of other pedals, but you end up paying more or close to than a new klon and plus the extra time and work it takes you to dial it in might not be worth the effort.
Pink Unicorn Horsey
Megä Pöny Rÿdr
Re: Klon . . . is it really all that !
In fact, that's pretty much the message you get from the manufacturer when you speak with him. Before he takes your order, he likes to know what kind of guitar and (more importantly) amp you'll be using it with, and manages expectations that way. Like a treble boost, it works best with an amp that's already in break-up.
- Keith
In fact, that's pretty much the message you get from the manufacturer when you speak with him. Before he takes your order, he likes to know what kind of guitar and (more importantly) amp you'll be using it with, and manages expectations that way. Like a treble boost, it works best with an amp that's already in break-up.
- Keith
Sporky McGuffin
New member
Re: Klon . . . is it really all that !
I hate to think what the Klon-haters (
) would make of the Pete Cornish pedals...
This one is about $1300...
I hate to think what the Klon-haters (
) would make of the Pete Cornish pedals...This one is about $1300...
Tom Huff
New member
Re: Klon . . . is it really all that !
$1300 ouch.
Looks cool. What does it do?I hate to think what the Klon-haters (
This one is about $1300...
$1300 ouch.
Pink Unicorn Horsey
Megä Pöny Rÿdr
ratherdashing
Kablamminator
Re: Klon . . . is it really all that !
You're absolutely right.
I'd estimate I probably spent about 70 hours of my time on manufacturing 15 FTL Drives. That's about four and a half hours per pedal. Now that I have more experience in building pedals from scratch, I can definitely cut that time way down for the next run.
HOWEVER, when you add up circuit design, prototyping, PCB design, enclosure layout, and artwork (such as it was), it easily comes to 100 hours, probably a lot more. I didn't really track my time too well during that phase, because I wasn't thinking of it in terms of business. Still, it was a significant investment. If I were paying an actual electrical engineer for that time, it would be thousands of dollars.
People don't seem to get that. They see a pedal as a collection of parts that magically coalesced into a working unit all by themselves. Even a casual builder like me is not immune to this problem unfortunately. I had a bit of a confrontation with a potential customer during the first run of FTL Drives over this very topic. I will not say anything more on the subject out of respect for those involved, other than that it was sorted out amicably and we simply agreed to disagree.
As for gooping a board, I completely understand the reasons for doing so, but it does strike me as a bit silly. We're talking about a very simple amplifier circuit after all - chances are it's either a clone of or based on something else anyway.
You're absolutely right.
I'd estimate I probably spent about 70 hours of my time on manufacturing 15 FTL Drives. That's about four and a half hours per pedal. Now that I have more experience in building pedals from scratch, I can definitely cut that time way down for the next run.
HOWEVER, when you add up circuit design, prototyping, PCB design, enclosure layout, and artwork (such as it was), it easily comes to 100 hours, probably a lot more. I didn't really track my time too well during that phase, because I wasn't thinking of it in terms of business. Still, it was a significant investment. If I were paying an actual electrical engineer for that time, it would be thousands of dollars.
People don't seem to get that. They see a pedal as a collection of parts that magically coalesced into a working unit all by themselves. Even a casual builder like me is not immune to this problem unfortunately. I had a bit of a confrontation with a potential customer during the first run of FTL Drives over this very topic. I will not say anything more on the subject out of respect for those involved, other than that it was sorted out amicably and we simply agreed to disagree.
As for gooping a board, I completely understand the reasons for doing so, but it does strike me as a bit silly. We're talking about a very simple amplifier circuit after all - chances are it's either a clone of or based on something else anyway.
Sporky McGuffin
New member
Re: Klon . . . is it really all that !
I built and destroyed 5 unsuccessful prototypes of the Valvesporker before I made one I was happy with. I think I've sold a total of 15 since. That's a rather hefty R&D cost, relatively speaking. Valvesporker 2 is going a bit better - the first one worked but needs tweaking, the second is intermittent, the third seems pretty darned good.
Add in the time involved at the rate I get paid for my day job and the total R&D bill would be ludicrous. And that's without factoring in the cost (and running costs) of the CNC machine I use to make my PCBs, the CAD, CAM and graphics applications involved, any of the other tools and so on.
There seem to be a lot of guitarists who "know" how much the components cost, but very few with any idea what the rest of the building process involves. I used to have people whine about the cost of the cables I sold - they were cost of parts plus £2 for assembly.
I built and destroyed 5 unsuccessful prototypes of the Valvesporker before I made one I was happy with. I think I've sold a total of 15 since. That's a rather hefty R&D cost, relatively speaking. Valvesporker 2 is going a bit better - the first one worked but needs tweaking, the second is intermittent, the third seems pretty darned good.
Add in the time involved at the rate I get paid for my day job and the total R&D bill would be ludicrous. And that's without factoring in the cost (and running costs) of the CNC machine I use to make my PCBs, the CAD, CAM and graphics applications involved, any of the other tools and so on.
There seem to be a lot of guitarists who "know" how much the components cost, but very few with any idea what the rest of the building process involves. I used to have people whine about the cost of the cables I sold - they were cost of parts plus £2 for assembly.
Dr.Mavashi
neonderthalotonalogist
Re: Klon . . . is it really all that !
Find a Spina TS9 and be done with it. If you are into that kind of thing .. I am ...
Find a Spina TS9 and be done with it. If you are into that kind of thing .. I am ...
Pink Unicorn Horsey
Megä Pöny Rÿdr
Re: Klon . . . is it really all that !
It's a nice pedal, but it's a different beast from a Klon Centaur.
It's a nice pedal, but it's a different beast from a Klon Centaur.
Re: Klon . . . is it really all that !
if you are pursuing that "extra somthing" and you find it with this peddle and money is no object-ya its well worth it. the focus is on tone not dollars for that person and if they can find it in this peddle why not?
for the average player who's stretching his cash and going for bang for the buck impact-no probably not. its not the main focus in your tone and hard to justify the money for the minor edge it gives.
If you've allready built your tone and want the extra edge, fine-thats what its made for.
:beerchug:
if you are pursuing that "extra somthing" and you find it with this peddle and money is no object-ya its well worth it. the focus is on tone not dollars for that person and if they can find it in this peddle why not?
for the average player who's stretching his cash and going for bang for the buck impact-no probably not. its not the main focus in your tone and hard to justify the money for the minor edge it gives.
If you've allready built your tone and want the extra edge, fine-thats what its made for.
:beerchug:
PVFan
Fudgeitallologist
Re: Klon . . . is it really all that !
clips of things have made me wanton, too. are we disagreeing about something? I don't think we are. My point you quoted was about nippleheads who bash gear based solely on clips. Of course it's reasonable to get excited about gear based on a clip. I've.
clips of things have made me wanton, too. are we disagreeing about something? I don't think we are. My point you quoted was about nippleheads who bash gear based solely on clips. Of course it's reasonable to get excited about gear based on a clip. I've.
PVFan
Fudgeitallologist
PVFan
Fudgeitallologist
Re: Klon . . . is it really all that !
har. you know the song.
when I think about you, I adore myself
har. you know the song.
when I think about you, I adore myself
Gearjoneser
Gear Ho
Re: Klon . . . is it really all that !
I like the fact that the old original models in gold with centaur logo are fetching such big money. I have no intention to sell mine, but it's nice to see the collectible value of the originals.
That said, I'm not rich and would never pay big bucks for one. 8 years ago, I was going through Craigslist ads and found one locally for $240. I knew I'd never find another one cheaper, so I ponied up the dough and grabbed it.
I've had quite a few nice OD pedals, and the Klon beat them, so I've kept it. Right now, it's the only OD pedal I own anymore.
One thing people don't realize is there's stacked pots in that unit, which suposedly control different gain stages, and that's what gives it a tubey feel under the fingers.
That's one thing you won't get from clips. It's not just the sound of it, it's the feel that it has. When you turn it on, it just sounds like a richer gainier version of your amp...that's all it really does. It's just like adding another channel to your amp.
I like the fact that the old original models in gold with centaur logo are fetching such big money. I have no intention to sell mine, but it's nice to see the collectible value of the originals.
That said, I'm not rich and would never pay big bucks for one. 8 years ago, I was going through Craigslist ads and found one locally for $240. I knew I'd never find another one cheaper, so I ponied up the dough and grabbed it.
I've had quite a few nice OD pedals, and the Klon beat them, so I've kept it. Right now, it's the only OD pedal I own anymore.
One thing people don't realize is there's stacked pots in that unit, which suposedly control different gain stages, and that's what gives it a tubey feel under the fingers.
That's one thing you won't get from clips. It's not just the sound of it, it's the feel that it has. When you turn it on, it just sounds like a richer gainier version of your amp...that's all it really does. It's just like adding another channel to your amp.
Gearjoneser
Gear Ho
Re: Klon . . . is it really all that !
Santa Klon ain't coming to town!
Santa Klon ain't coming to town!