Lab question. Machines

[SJ318]

Hi,
I am drawn to the WLHb and in the detail they said "Seymours unique winding pattern". What does
this mean?
Can a Lessona or other machine be set to wind in a pre-arranged pattern on the machines. Say
maybe 5 or 6 winding patterns that they programmed and then choose appropriate wire, number of turns, magnet, etc. which can wind up with many pickup designs and sounds.
So, did Mr. Duncan pre-program the winding on the WLH, turn it on, and then it stops winding at the programmed time?
Like also tension, up and down on the bobbin, or just straight wind, etc?
Mincer, you must know this, Zhang, Lt. Kojak, other folks who work in winding labs?
Not looking for in depth secrets or anything, no arguments, not telling any one how to do their job,
just plain curious.
Steve

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Lab question. Machines

they said "Seymours unique winding pattern". What does this mean?

It means nothing and everything. Marketing verbose.

Can a Lessona or other machine be set to wind in a pre-arranged pattern on the machines.

Indeed they can. Although is a job for a qualified person.

did Mr. Duncan pre-program the winding on the WLH, turn it on, and then it stops winding at the programmed time?

In theory it should be that simple... in practice, the operator has the biggest part of the resposability of the outcome.

Like also tension, up and down on the bobbin, or just straight wind, etc?

The machine is set-up with specs like type of wire, (like PE or Poly, although I believe the Leesone is calibrated for PE exclusively) AWG#, TPL (TurnsPerLayer) Scatter Yes/No, and Tension (in grams)

HTH,

 

[darthphineas]

Re: Lab question. Machines

a lot of what could be beneficial about the Leesona is at http://www.pafhumbucker.com/leesona102-paf-pickups.html

check this out

BUT.... there's nothing in the current marketing that shows it to be wound on a Leesona. Can't even find that that in a Google Search (for: whole lotta humbucker leesona)

the Leesona isn't really "programmable", as a CNC winder can be. sometimes it can be who "sets up" the Leesona before usage.... just like an experienced barista might make your latte differently than a new barista, although it will still be coffee and milk.

what does "unique winding pattern" mean? some might suggest it's marketing, which is very fair. outside of what the Duncan company will or will not say about it, we're left with speculation.


putting confirmation bias aside, knowing how it's made won't affect if the customer likes the sound or not.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Lab question. Machines

I think every pickup about has a 'unique winding pattern', as I doubt even if you tried you would not ever wind 2 coils exactly the same. So to a degree there is accuracy that every winder has 'a unique pattern'.
But there is a degree of marketing there too, as to get the 'Duncan' sound you must buy a Duncan.

But as with every pickup, winders start with an idea and try winding until they achieve what they want. Of course they already know to a degree what will work and how to lay the wire down such that it will make a good pickup before they start a new design.

From my discussions with winders they have told me that you can often have multiple changes in wind aspects simply to get 1 tonal change - the multiples being necessary to compensate for what happens when you change the first aspect. Say for example, increasing turns without darkening the tone.

 

[SJ318]

Re: Lab question. Machines

Lt. Kojak, darthphineas, AlexR -
GREAT INFORMATION!!!. I figured something along the lines that you guys know. Thank you.
Good stuff,
Steve Buffington

 

[thanaton]

Re: Lab question. Machines

Hi,
I am drawn to the WLHb and in the detail they said "Seymours unique winding pattern".

Have you ever read an interview with a pickup winder where he says something along the lines "if I zig and zag is like this, I get more of a mid scoop, and if I go back ad forth really fast, I get more bass, and if I traverse the bobbin real slow, I get more treble". I'm just making up sort of what I might expect a winder to say if they have some sort of insight about how winding patterns influence the tone. I've read a lot of interviews, and I've never seen anything that even comes to laying out that kind of "I wind like this, it's sounds like that", and for this reason, I don't think there is any credibility to the notion of wind pattern making tone unique. More would have been said publicly about it by now, if there were something more to be understood about it.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Lab question. Machines

^ Once again you fail to grasp that wind patterns and tone are the heart of the pickup......and the thing that is THE skill in winding that takes all the time to develop. As you demonstrate no actual winding experience every time you post, it comes as no surprise that you fail to grasp that these are the aspects of pickup winding that winders might want to protect.
So your conclusion is based on cynicism.

 

[darthphineas]

Re: Lab question. Machines

^ Once again you fail to grasp that wind patterns and tone are the heart of the pickup......and the thing that is THE skill in winding that takes all the time to develop. As you demonstrate no actual winding experience every time you post, it comes as no surprise that you fail to grasp that these are the aspects of pickup winding that winders might want to protect.
So your conclusion is based on cynicism.

^ this ^



plus, it's not like Seymour is going to talk openly about "hey guys, I've got this JB model and it's one of the best selling aftermarket pickups of all time, but... I wind it like this, so it sounds like that". the places that try to clone the JB for their JB-killer would appreciate that type of IP transparency.

 

[jeremy]

Re: Lab question. Machines

I don't think there is any credibility to the notion of wind pattern making tone unique. More would have been said publicly about it by now, if there were something more to be understood about it.

it took me years of practice to learn what i have, so why would i give you that info i learned from my hard work for nothing? especially for people that make a living at this, there is no incentive to give away what someone has learned by experience to someone who might be their competition. the fact that you dont think wind pattern influences tone shows you have nothing but a poor academic understanding of how a pup works.

 

[darthphineas]

Re: Lab question. Machines

it took me years of practice to learn what i have, so why would i give you that info i learned from my hard work for nothing? especially for people that make a living at this, there is no incentive to give away what someone has learned by experience to someone who might be their competition. the fact that you dont think wind pattern influences tone shows you have nothing but a poor academic understanding of how a pup works.

+1

 

[AlexR]

Re: Lab question. Machines

Its perhaps a little more sinister.
Have you ever noticed (in the many times it happens) that whatever poorly formed opinion he holds he will try and justify with increasingly tenuous and far fetched ideas. Now we get to the conspiracy theory level of argument for his 'wind patterns are irrelevant'.

 

[darthphineas]

Re: Lab question. Machines

Its perhaps a little more sinister.
Have you ever noticed (in the many times it happens) that whatever poorly formed opinion he holds he will try and justify with increasingly tenuous and far fetched ideas. Now we get to the conspiracy theory level of argument for his 'wind patterns are irrelevant'.

 

[jeremy]

Re: Lab question. Machines

lets not let this get too far out of bounds guys. we are all on the same page here, no reason to beat a dead horse.

 

[SJ318]

Re: Lab question. Machines

Yes Jeremy.
Getting out of hand and a little off topic. Will close thread end of tomorrow.
Thanks for all the info everyone,
Steve Buffington

 

[SJ318]

Re: Lab question. Machines

And a good night to all,
Great minds, thank you,
Steve Buffington