Duncan Construction Quality VS Boutique Questions and Clarity needed:

Re: Duncan Construction Quality VS Boutique Questions and Clarity needed:

Here's the thing, PAF's come in all sorts of different winds, output levels, magnets and the like. A "PAF" (patent applied for) is a style of pickup, most often referred to those early humbuckers from the 50's and 60's. Thing is, the consistency was all over the place. One day may result in some of the sweetest sounding PAF's ever wound and the next may be all turds, done by the same people using the same materials. Maybe the weather was crazy that day. Quality control wasn't as tight as it is today. Wind it til the bobbin is fill then wire it up. (you probably know all of this already)

Today, number of turns, type of wire, magnet strength, bobbin material, base plate material, all of that is thought about. Is one winder right and everyone else wrong? Of course not. Each one has their own "flavor" of PAF based on examples they have or have heard. Seymour makes some of the best out there. Do I like them all? Honestly, no. There's other I'd prefer, and that's cool. But I will say, the construction quality of SD pickups, PAF or not, is top notch. If there's a problem, you'll be taken care of.

SD doesn't cut corners. You are getting a top quality product by any definition. Whether that pickup is better or worse than a competing product depends on the guitar and your specific taste in tone.

Here's my take on it: when it comes to choice of materials, build quality, and the experience of the craftsmen who are actually doing the work, the regular Seymour Duncan product is second to none. Period. You can compare SD Production Floor pickups to [fill in the blank with the cork-sniffiest boutique pickup builder] and SDs will be at least as good and in most cases better. Did I just say "better?" I did. And here's why.

When it comes to the materials that go into most boutique pickups, they are rarely tooled by the builder or their local machine shop. I'm talking about bobbins, covers, bottom plates, metal spacers, etc. So where do they get them from? The big parts houses. Where do the big parts houses get them from? The same folks who supply the big Asian pickup builders.

Now just because the components come from Asia, doesn't mean they're bad. Hell, I'd put Duncan Designed pickups up against a lot of USA-made (non-SD) pickups and they'll come out on top. But I guarantee that whatever draftsman drew the spec drawings for those mass-produced bobbins and covers and whatnot did not have the guitar-specific experience of Seymour and Kevin Beller. And you can see it. Check out an old PAF and compare it to the boutique versions. Often times you'll see little differences in things like a corner radius, or a tooling mark, or a surface finish, or a substrate, or a plating material, or a material choice, or a dimension. And often times you'll see those same components used on several different boutique brands--because they're buying their components from the same parts supply companies.

Seymour Duncan tools their own bobbins, covers, bottom plates, spacers, etc. etc. In most cases, for their vintage pickups, they'll use the exact same materials as the originals. Or sometimes they'll make compromises for modern production, like using polycarbonate bobbins on the '59 so it can be wax potted. But if you want butyrate bobbins, there are three PAF models that offer that.

And a note about plain enamel wire. There is magnet wire that's passed off as plain enamel by some of the big wire manufacturers. And it's not. It's easy to tell if it's real plain enamel. If a hot soldering iron melts off the insulation, it's not plain enamel, even if it has the characteristic chocolately brown color. If you need to scrape off the insulation so you can solder to the wire, then it's likely the real deal. If you ever see any photos or videos of the Leesona in action (whether they're shot by SD staffers or factory visitors), notice that the winder always scrapes off the insulation.

Now before you go off on me for dissing [fill in the blank with the boutique pickup builder who you just shelled out major coin to], keep in mind that I'm not calling out any specific companies or pickup builders here. There are a lot of fine vintage pickups built by winders who have the same appreciation for vintage that Kevin and Seymour have. Well, maybe not a lot. But there are some. I'm pretty sure.

The reason for this diatribe is really to draw attention to the components that go into pickups. Remember, each part of the pickup is part of the tone chain. And some guitar players are paying their hard earned money to pickup builders who are purchasing their components from the big parts houses. That's all.

Thanks so much for the added clarity Evan! I had a feeling there might be something along these lines but had no idea that you guys were making your own bobbins, covers, plates, spacers etc. This is exactly the kind of information i was looking for that can't be found on any other thread or product information page on the internet.

Thanks again Evan! How do I send you money for a beer? Cheers!
 
Re: Duncan Construction Quality VS Boutique Questions and Clarity needed:

Come to the next User Group Day and I'll let you buy the first round. :)
 
Re: Duncan Construction Quality VS Boutique Questions and Clarity needed:

I used to ask...so when did Seymour Duncan stop becoming boutique? When the company grew to be the biggest and the best? Haha. When you innovate, hire brilliant and creative people, learn to market to professionals and produce a consistently great product, and pave the way for others behind you, you suddenly become less valuable? Ha..we are a funny bunch, us musicians. So often chasing lore but often neglecting our spirit and ears. 'Boutique' means small, generally. And despite clinging to our illusions that 'small' often means 'attention' to detail, it is the same (or in many cases less as Evan described) detail that SD offers only with much less experience and knowledge. The real mastery in a craft comes from time. Reminds me of Malcolm Gladwells book...Outliers. Anyway, enjoy the massive abundant options available to us. We are blessed and these are exciting times. Good post. Cheers!
 
Re: Duncan Construction Quality VS Boutique Questions and Clarity needed:

I used to ask...so when did Seymour Duncan stop becoming boutique? When the company grew to be the biggest and the best? Haha. When you innovate, hire brilliant and creative people, learn to market to professionals and produce a consistently great product, and pave the way for others behind you, you suddenly become less valuable? Ha..we are a funny bunch, us musicians. So often chasing lore but often neglecting our spirit and ears. 'Boutique' means small, generally. And despite clinging to our illusions that 'small' often means 'attention' to detail, it is the same (or in many cases less as Evan described) detail that SD offers only with much less experience and knowledge. The real mastery in a craft comes from time. Reminds me of Malcolm Gladwells book...Outliers. Anyway, enjoy the massive abundant options available to us. We are blessed and these are exciting times. Good post. Cheers!

Well, I think the small luthiers like Suhr, Anderson, Tyler, Grosh etc have colored our perception. I used to work for the largest Anderson dealer in the US and when I played a mexi strat that was set up by a local luthier named Mike Lull that played every bit as well as the Anderson, I realized that perhaps boutique isn't everything I thought it was. Maybe I just needed a well constructed instrument with the right attention to detail and tonewoods, then someone like Mr Lull can do the fine detail fret dress/action adjustments that makes those 4k guitars feel special.

These days I play G&L and Heritage with Duncans installed. I noticed Mr Duncan and Mr Skopp are also Heritage fans so I guess I'm on the right track.

I just never felt good about changing pickups and electronics on a masterpiece like an R8, PRS or any 2-3k custom shop masterpiece. Modding those just doesn't feel right and they generally feel like I want to change the Pickups (actually, my G&L's are pretty amazing with the Alnicos but I'll throw a Liberator in them just the same to play with different stuff like quarter pounders and what not).

Cheers.
 
Re: Duncan Construction Quality VS Boutique Questions and Clarity needed:

SD's build quality is fine, as is the build quality of many other aftermarket (and in-house) pickups. I have no complaints about any SD or Di'Marzio pickup I've ever owned.

I'd like to hear some specific names and examples of boutique builders that are using junk Asian components...or at least some names of ones that don't. It's not that I don't believe it. It's just that a general statement without naming names, such as the one that was posted, could make someone suspicious of the entire boutique "industry," regardless of the quality of individual builders, and that serves Seymour Duncan. I hold high suspicions of anything "boutique" anyhow...but I find that implying the inferiority of competitors in general while tip-toeing around the facts of the matter to be less than ethical. The way I see it, if you're not gonna name names and provide facts, then don't say anything at all about how bad other companies are.
 
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Re: Duncan Construction Quality VS Boutique Questions and Clarity needed:

I thought SD's were "Bouteek" . LOL IN my 45 yrs making gits I've tried more after-market pups than I can remember. SD's are the best. Hands down. Especially anything wound by MJ. Luv that woman.
PC
 
Re: Duncan Construction Quality VS Boutique Questions and Clarity needed:

SD's build quality is fine, as is the build quality of many other aftermarket (and in-house) pickups. I have no complaints about any SD or Di'Marzio pickup I've ever owned.

I'd like to hear some specific names and examples of boutique builders that are using junk Asian components...or at least some names of ones that don't. It's not that I don't believe it. It's just that a general statement without naming names, such as the one that was posted, could make someone suspicious of the entire boutique "industry," regardless of the quality of individual builders, and that serves Seymour Duncan. I hold high suspicions of anything "boutique" anyhow...but I find that implying the inferiority of competitors in general while tip-toeing around the facts of the matter to be less than ethical. The way I see it, if you're not gonna name names and provide facts, then don't say anything at all about how bad other companies are.

I wouldn't expect any self respecting sales/marketing professional to throw specific competitors under the bus. It's just facts about the market place. There's probably only a few companies making bobbins and wire etc and the small guys have to buy from a vendor. Did you know that the ONLY drum company that makes their own wooden drum shells is Yamaha? That every Korean guitar you've played from different brands like Epiphone, Schecter, PRS and G&L is made in the same factory by the same people? It's just the nature of the guitar market and supply chains for small builders or niche markets in anything.

It's actually more unethical to call out specific competitors and would make SD look bad.
 
Re: Duncan Construction Quality VS Boutique Questions and Clarity needed:

I disagree that calling out specific competitors using proven facts is unethical. If the facts are on your side, just state them clearly; that is what I want and respect from a company's marketing. If you are gonna throw a competitor under the bus, then DO IT. Do it honestly, and do it 100%. State the facts about your company; state the facts about your competitors. I have no problem with that; I respect it. But snaky half statements and generalized implications that can possibly harm innocent competitors – those are slimy and gross. I guess we all read marketing a different way, though. All I want is the facts. Others want to be told how to think. As I stated, S.D. produces a great product, and several reasons why were stated. But I find the half-assed dismissal of many boutique builders coming from an S.D. official to be unattractive. I don't expect anyone to agree with me...but that's what I think, regardless. The shyster act is unbecoming of the S.D. name. I don't even think it was intentional, but it needs to be stated how that could be read.
 
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Re: Duncan Construction Quality VS Boutique Questions and Clarity needed:

It's not so much that it's unethical. It's more that it's bad business. When you're the leader in a product category, you never compare yourself to the competition by name. That lowers you and elevates them. On the other hand, when you're #2, you definitely compare yourself to #1 by name in hopes of elevating yourself to their stature.

Imagine this commercial: <Voice Over> "The Mercedes Benz XYZ has more leg room than a Kia." It's not going to happen. What you do hear is, "The Mercedes Benz has more leg room than any other sedan in its class." On the other hand, you'll hear, "The Kia has more leg room than a Mercedes Benz XYZ Model." Sorry if that's snaky, slimy and gross to you, ItsaBass. But that's Marketing 101.

Now, if you or anybody else really want to test out what I said to see if it's true, go ahead test it out. Itsa free country. Compare a real PAF to the so-called boutiques. See if their "PE" insulation melts off with a hot soldering tip. Get out your calipers and see how dimensionally accurate the components are. Then see if multiple boutiques are using the exact same bobbins, same bottom plates, same covers, etc. Look for the same tooling marks, the same mold marks, the same out-of-spec dimensions.

I guarantee they're not using the same components Seymour Duncan uses (unless they're cannibalizing old SD pickups).
 
Re: Duncan Construction Quality VS Boutique Questions and Clarity needed:

the same out-of-spec dimensions.

Sorry Evan, but you lost me here: what are you referring to? What dimensional specs are you talking about?

Inquiring minds would like to know. :cool2:
 
Re: Duncan Construction Quality VS Boutique Questions and Clarity needed:

I wanna reinstate why I use Duncans, and will continue to use them. I cant afford a XYZ boutique pickup. Heck a normal floor production Duncan itself is a lot of money for me. But I know I am getting a quality product if not TOP Quality. I do think it would be wrong to restrict my self to any specific brand, if I had done so I would have never had my current Ibanez SA . You never know until you go and try diff brands. But again it need to be somewhat affordable ( well at least for me). And for sure just because something is expensive it does not mean it is great and vice verse. Oh and I love this forum .....
 
Re: Duncan Construction Quality VS Boutique Questions and Clarity needed:

I tried a number of pickups, even some famous boutiques, and in the end I always came back to SD for two main reasons, contruction quality and, much more important, tone. Since I discovered mag swapping with this forum my love for SD is even raised, because if you start with a great quality construction the tone shaping is a lot easier. Period.
 
Re: Duncan Construction Quality VS Boutique Questions and Clarity needed:

I have the luxury of being good friends with a true gear hound and great player. When I was starting to put together cheap parts Teles as an experiment and for fun we listened to a lot of stuff- old Bill Lawrence XL510s with taps, Fralin PAFs, Suhr, Duncans- both Duncan designed and USA including Antiquities, PRS USA and Korean buckers and singles, an old Carvin, Fender Texas Specials with a SD Pearly Gates in a 95 Lone Star Strat, 73 stock Strat, CS Esquire re-issue with a Twisted Tele in it, Gibson mini buckers and Burstbuckers, a 61 Junior with that great p-90, a 90s Les Paul DC with a JB in the bridge, and a few different GFS sets because the idea was to keep it cheap but listen for comparison.
Without delving into all of the important factors that go into manufacturing and voicing pickups and guitar/neck wood, wiring, hardware, etc. that affect the
tone (because I don't know any of that) I was able to get an idea of what to look for. I play a Gabriel 18 watt amp and plugged straight in. Although a highly non-scientific comparison my ears kept coming back to the Duncans. I really like the Lone Star setup and there's a Duncan in there. I really liked the Duncan Designed buckers in my Korean Hamer, liked the Burstbuckers a lot, and the BLs had great output and cleaned up really well but were always bright and hi midrange sounding and never sweet enough for me. The p-90 in the Junior was killer-noisy as hell but great. GFS weren't bad for the dough and I've kept their hotter output sets in 2 builds. The Duncans were sweeter at lower levels and stayed sweet as you cranked em all the way through.
BUT the combination that finally hooked me was the Duncan BG1400 bridge pickup and the Hot for Tele SC in the neck. WOW! It took a while and a leap of faith to try the more expensive BG1400 on a recommendation, but there was a lot of that p-90 in there without any noise. The first neck pickup I tried was from a Mexican stock Tele and it could not keep up and sounded flat. After swapping it out for the Duncan Hot for Tele it was much more balanced and hi-fi. I did change the pots out from 250k to 500k and it opened up and breathes much better without any spikiness.
So like everybody says it's personal and you have to experiment. I only wish there was a setup someplace where you could try before you buy pickups to hear them in different guitars. Would be cool. Sound clips help a little but you have to try stuff with your own rig.

It had the best of the punchy and percussive output and still cleaned up well. Still got the Tele tone I wanted to keep, but cranked in the lead position it's like a great P-90
 
Re: Duncan Construction Quality VS Boutique Questions and Clarity needed:

Well, I think the small luthiers like Suhr, Anderson, Tyler, Grosh etc have colored our perception. I used to work for the largest Anderson dealer in the US and when I played a mexi strat that was set up by a local luthier named Mike Lull that played every bit as well as the Anderson, I realized that perhaps boutique isn't everything I thought it was. Maybe I just needed a well constructed instrument with the right attention to detail and tonewoods, then someone like Mr Lull can do the fine detail fret dress/action adjustments that makes those 4k guitars feel special.

These days I play G&L and Heritage with Duncans installed. I noticed Mr Duncan and Mr Skopp are also Heritage fans so I guess I'm on the right track.

I just never felt good about changing pickups and electronics on a masterpiece like an R8, PRS or any 2-3k custom shop masterpiece. Modding those just doesn't feel right and they generally feel like I want to change the Pickups (actually, my G&L's are pretty amazing with the Alnicos but I'll throw a Liberator in them just the same to play with different stuff like quarter pounders and what not).

Cheers.

Sure I understand, still Suhr, Anderson et.al are high-end production models, not boutique to me. May be semantics, but Suhr even has an import line now and they have both been around for years. Most higher end guitar maker and 'boutique' pickup makers share little in 'lore'. Beside Mike Lull makes very high-end guitars he is not your typical 'luthier', he is first rate. I currently play PRS, Nash, Gretsch and Fender. Suhr is on my list for my next axe and they are so well made, sound great and have some awesome sounding pickups for their guitars.. I also use the stock PRS pickups as there is no retrofitting a narrow-field plus they sound great.

Its more of a point of perception. Many people believe 'smaller' equals better. In cases of new Fenders versus custom 'Tele' type small builder guitars I would say that is often the case. But with pickups? I have not seen it yet. Duncan has consistency with QC and materials that is rarely matched.

When I think boutique, I could list 25 pickup makers with 'internet' lore. Ha. I appreciate Evans take on the marketing. If someone wants to make their pickups sound 'somehow even more vintage, more authentic, and more great sounding' they may often use Duncan as a benchmark for comparison. To say something like 'this PAF blows a Duncan 59' out of the water" (Typical forum language) is meant to say 'this is better than the industry benchmark for quality vintage reproductions". Companies like Duncan don't lose quality, they refine their methods. They make better pickups, more consistently because of tried and true hand-crafted systems in place. I appreciate that.

That said...I use both Duncan and other hand-crafted quality pickups. I choose pickups for the instrument. Always. Cheers to you as well.
 
Re: Duncan Construction Quality VS Boutique Questions and Clarity needed:

All little makers declare that their pickups are better than "stock production" because are handmade... I think that in this way they can't check tension and wire pattern.... what do you think?
 
Re: Duncan Construction Quality VS Boutique Questions and Clarity needed:

All little makers declare that their pickups are better than "stock production" because are handmade... I think that in this way they can't check tension and wire pattern.... what do you think?

I think making electronics isn't like wood-working and design/consistency trump hand-worked electronics/metals.
 
Re: Duncan Construction Quality VS Boutique Questions and Clarity needed:

There's a lot of hype around, but I heard some handmade pickups sounding really good, in my experience.
I don't know , maybe it's just a matter of material used. I think there could be something involving the the windings, maybe the almost 'random' pattern created winding the pickup by hand gives the pickup some additional 'breath'.
Maybe it's only psychoacoustic.
I'm pretty sure however SD quality is really high and consistent.
 
Re: Duncan Construction Quality VS Boutique Questions and Clarity needed:

There's a lot of hype around, but I heard some handmade pickups sounding really good, in my experience.
I don't know , maybe it's just a matter of material used. I think there could be something involving the the windings, maybe the almost 'random' pattern created winding the pickup by hand gives the pickup some additional 'breath'.
Maybe it's only psychoacoustic.
I'm pretty sure however SD quality is really high and consistent.

Sounds like speculation without facts or examples. Thanks for the non-valuable input. Please read Evan Skopp's post and educate yourself on pickups before making crappy false statements and filling the thread with brain farts.
 
Re: Duncan Construction Quality VS Boutique Questions and Clarity needed:

Sounds like speculation without facts or examples. Thanks for the non-valuable input. Please read Evan Skopp's post and educate yourself on pickups before making crappy false statements and filling the thread with brain farts.

The man said nothing wrong or "false", back off.
 
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