Lately something has come to my attention,

[youngthrasher9]

and it amazes me how often people don't understand this.

If you look at lots of the founding fathers of tone in rock and metal, they had certain things in common that made their tone what it is. Think about it. There's Brian May, Jimi Hendrix, Malcom and Angus Young, Eddie Van Halen, and Tony Iommi. The two things that link them tonally are: Volume and simplicity. For Brian and the Young brothers tone especially, the fact that they used VOLUME to get their tone, not gobs of gain and saturation, is far to often overlooked. This thought had been planted in my mind months ago, but it really solidified when I made the spontanious decision to try playing through the clean channel of my amp with a clean boost in front and the volume dimed. Let me tell you right now, hearing a set of power tubes being pushed to the edge is a religious and humbling experience.

It's like the skies open up and the Gods of rock and roll at last find you worthy of unleashing the thunderous fury of the main riff to Highway to Hell.

 

[Inder_Cine_Mann]

Re: Lately something has come to my attention,

Simpler times? Less gear and options. None the less, you bring up a good point. I love the guys that have a bazzilion pedals. Happy tap dancing.

 

[Grindspine]

Re: Lately something has come to my attention,

and it amazes me how often people don't understand this.

If you look at lots of the founding fathers of tone in rock and metal, they had certain things in common that made their tone what it is. Think about it. There's Brian May, Jimi Hendrix, Malcom and Angus Young, Eddie Van Halen, and Tony Iommi. The two things that link them tonally are: Volume and simplicity. For Brian and the Young brothers tone especially, the fact that they used VOLUME to get their tone, not gobs of gain and saturation, is far to often overlooked. This thought had been planted in my mind months ago, but it really solidified when I made the spontanious decision to try playing through the clean channel of my amp with a clean boost in front and the volume dimed. Let me tell you right now, hearing a set of power tubes being pushed to the edge is a religious and humbling experience.

It's like the skies open up and the Gods of rock and roll at last find you worthy of unleashing the thunderous fury of the main riff to Highway to Hell.

But that being said, you've never stood in front of a stereo high power-high gain setup. As volume is increased, gain can be dialed back, but there are a lot of tones between low volume high gain and high volume low gain.

And it isn't necessarily that people don't understand, in most occasions, concert level volume is not appropriate.

 

[James Rock]

Re: Lately something has come to my attention,

I love the guys that have a bazzilion pedals. Happy tap dancing.

Definitely volume especially lower gain amps with more power tube distortion sounds amazing but I don't think this means that using pedals is against this philosophy for example Hendrix used effects alot not always infront of amps (but fuzzes, boosts, univibe, wah) but also studio effects. Then Gilmour use very loud HiWatts with an array of pedals to colour his tone. My personal favourite way is loud NMV amps with colourful pedals just enough power tube distortion to give it balls. This is less applicable in small venue and home situation where a different approach has to be taken.

 

[Aceman]

Re: Lately something has come to my attention,

Output stage distortion is a magical and awesome thing.

It can also blow amps and ears....

 

[youngthrasher9]

Re: Lately something has come to my attention,

But that being said, you've never stood in front of a stereo high power-high gain setup. As volume is increased, gain can be dialed back, but there are a lot of tones between low volume high gain and high volume low gain.

And it isn't necessarily that people don't understand, in most occasions, concert level volume is not appropriate.

High gain is definitely appropriate for some things, without a doubt, but my point is those classic tones have a lot to do with the volume. Don't get me wrong, I understand (and love) the power of a fire breathing high gain amp for sure, but for playing things that were meant to be played with the power tubes nearing failure, they don't compare most of the time.

 

[youngthrasher9]

Re: Lately something has come to my attention,

Definitely volume especially lower gain amps with more power tube distortion sounds amazing but I don't think this means that using pedals is against this philosophy for example Hendrix used effects alot not always infront of amps (but fuzzes, boosts, univibe, wah) but also studio effects. Then Gilmour use very loud HiWatts with an array of pedals to colour his tone. My personal favourite way is loud NMV amps with colourful pedals just enough power tube distortion to give it balls. This is less applicable in small venue and home situation where a different approach has to be taken.

Yeah, I hope that no one thought I was dogging on the use of pedals. That would be a little bit naive, because Brian May, Jimi, AND Tony Iommi used pedals at times. Brian and Tony both used a treble booster a lot, and Jimi is known for his use of fuzz.

 

[crusty philtrum]

Re: Lately something has come to my attention,

Let me tell you right now, hearing a set of power tubes being pushed to the edge is a religious and humbling experience.

For some of us, it's normal. It's all this other junk that's the abberation ... master volume controls and 'gain', and buzzy, artificial-sounding efforts that don't come close to the original sounds of big, bold tube amps that only gave up 'rawk' when pushed hard, or, as we discovered way back then, hit in the face by some kind of simple one or two-transistor booster.

And to still be able to get the same kind of sounds in today's environments, the answer is simply to use smaller non-mv amps without the dreaded 'gain' elements. Yeah, ya can't push as much air nowdays (eight 12s was the standard when i was a teenager in the 1970s even for local bands, anything less was considered laziness) but you can still get the old-school sounds with smaller amps. But ya got to have some balls, there's no room for pretenders when ya do it the good way. If ya want mean, ya have to play mean, there's no dirt knobs to hide behind.

A good old-school player with 20 watts will reduce a modern player with modern 100-watt amps to a pathetic snivelling bee-fart that can't be heard above a transistor radio. Most modern aggresion in music is fake. It couldn't be faked back then, if it was there, it was real. Most of today's heroes would wither in the face of a true rock dinosaur. The big difference is probably dynamics ... then, it was fully dynamic ... now, mostly compressed by so much filth created in the preamp.

And by the way, let's not forget that Brian May himself has said that he owes his sound to Rory Gallagher, who told the young Brian that his sound was due to a Vox AC30 and a Rangemaster. And I bet Rory wasn't pussyfooting around with the volume on the AC30 either.

Gear was simple, ya plugged in, turned up and played. The men were separated from the boys. Now it's mostly limp-wristed sissies wearing makeup and scowling at the camera. None of them would have cut it in the dinosaur days, they would have pooped their pants and run home to mummy.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Lately something has come to my attention,

Add Blackmore to the list. His live sound on "Made in Japan" is so different from 1970-72 studio sound.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Lately something has come to my attention,

BTW, I don't think it's the power tubes mainly.

 

[Ashurbanipal]

Re: Lately something has come to my attention,

I agree, and realized early on in my electric guitar playing days that my favourite tones were low/medium gain with high volume, resulting in 'that' sustain. The tones of Brian, Jimi, and Eddie have all these qualities, though Jimi used Fuzz and effects more extensively.

So much so that many years later I play with my amp's gain set to about 2-3 with a treble booster in front, which gets me in that ballpark.

 

[dominus]

Re: Lately something has come to my attention,

High gain wasn't available back then. People used what they had to create. People would push things as far as they could, and then newer technology made it easier.





I like both versions, but I prefer the guitar tone on the Biohazard one. (Yes, I did hear the original first. I had the record 30+ years ago when I was a little kid. I picked up Nativity In Black when I was in high school. )

 

[xxxplorer]

Re: Lately something has come to my attention,

Crusty's post makes me happy. The limp wrist part in particular. Seeing a band that can play is a rare treat around here. Every now and again someone that has a mean right hand comes through and the kids in the tight pants can't figure out how a sound so heavy came from such an old amp... As Scott Ian says... It's in the right hand. I can chunk on a roland KC-120 ;p

 

[Myaccount876]

Re: Lately something has come to my attention,

Exactly! I consider Brian May as high-gain, though the volume is maxed, he also has a treble booster. I now keep my Night Train on 15 watts, thick channel, gain at 2 or 3, then volume on 10. Gain and compression are great tools for guitars that are overdone way too much nowadays. Just listen to these individual tracks:





It also says a lot about equalization. Contrary to popular belief, Iommi's guitar is actually pretty bright with a lot of mids, a only a splash of bass. Pretty much all of 'his' low-end comes from Geezer.

For Queen (I think May shows his best guitar work on these two songs btw):

 

[Andrew Lamprecht]

Re: Lately something has come to my attention,


Go to 4:04


Thats made in Japan. That's ritchie blackmore with a strat. Those are cranked 120 watt marshalls with the only thing in front being a treble booster. Simple.... but that's tone man.


It's no new thing that volume gives you that extra push that all these blues lawyers are trying to get with their bootique overdrive pedals. It's unfortunate that we can't crank them like they used to be able to. When I play with my band I get to 2 on the volume knob of my 60 watt mesa and I'm being told to turn down.

 

[some_dude]

Re: Lately something has come to my attention,

The secret has always been volume. Whether we're talking low gain or high gain, if it ain't loud it's just not that impressive.

 

[Jocelyn]

Re: Lately something has come to my attention,

Exactly! I consider Brian May as high-gain, though the volume is maxed, he also has a treble booster. I now keep my Night Train on 15 watts, thick channel, gain at 2 or 3, then volume on 10. Gain and compression are great tools for guitars that are overdone way too much nowadays. Just listen to these individual tracks:





It also says a lot about equalization. Contrary to popular belief, Iommi's guitar is actually pretty bright with a lot of mids, a only a splash of bass. Pretty much all of 'his' low-end comes from Geezer.

For Queen (I think May shows his best guitar work on these two songs btw):


My fav albums, of both the bands.

Go to 4:04


Thats made in Japan. That's ritchie blackmore with a strat. Those are cranked 120 watt marshalls with the only thing in front being a treble booster. Simple.... but that's tone man.


It's no new thing that volume gives you that extra push that all these blues lawyers are trying to get with their bootique overdrive pedals. It's unfortunate that we can't crank them like they used to be able to. When I play with my band I get to 2 on the volume knob of my 60 watt mesa and I'm being told to turn down.

Thats is the truth. It is not possible to crank the way they used to. Ritchie rocked, I always loved his tone in Deep Purple and Rainbow.

I have always liked keeping the gain low. Several years back I was using a metal distortion pedal even on that I had set the gain very low, and loved the tones from it. Of course I don't play Metal or heavy metal.

 

[Phantasmagoria]

Re: Lately something has come to my attention,

I don't think Tony Iommi ever had a problem with high gain heads..they just were'nt available to him at the time or that's what he would've used.

Here he is explaining his live set up in the 80's...



8 300w Mesa Boogie Coliseum amps (yeah ..eight ) , 12 (twelve!!!) 4x12 cabs..

He's rocking his custom BC Rich Ironbird with a Kahler & scalloped fretboard..

 

[Jocelyn]

Re: Lately something has come to my attention,

Tony's pickups would be very unforgiving in my hands . I loved his tone in Masters of Reality.

 

[xxxplorer]

Re: Lately something has come to my attention,

High gain wasn't available back then. People used what they had to create. People would push things as far as they could, and then newer technology made it easier.





I like both versions, but I prefer the guitar tone on the Biohazard one. (Yes, I did hear the original first. I had the record 30+ years ago when I was a little kid. I picked up Nativity In Black when I was in high school. )

For me Sabbath's is heavier because of the whole band... it sounds like it was written and performed by THEM. The Biohazard version is fun, but just doesn't really capture the same vibe... it's almost like they're making a pop punk video to Sabbath. I know the guitar tone is the focus, but that's my 4 cents.