Let's get geeky about winding direction.

Rich_S

HomeGrownToneBrewologist
I was on the phone a couple weeks ago with somebody at Fralin (not Lindy). I was asking questions about whether the Blues Special Strat pickups I got off FleaBay would phase correctly with my Duncan QP. While we were talking, he said something about wiring a pickup one way being noisier that if I swapped its leads. (We're talking about normal single-coil Strat pickujps here).

I was scribbling some notes at the time and didn't catch all of what he said, but I took it to mean that the outside wraps on a pickup coil act as shielding for the inner wraps, and therefore should be wired as the "ground" side of the pickup. That would mean the "hot" signal is buried in the middle of the coil, shielded by the grounded outer wraps.

It made sense to me, but then I started looking at the pickups I had lying around (the pair of Fralin Strats, and a pair of '05 MIM Tele pickups.) I can see the coil wires leaving the eyelets, and can tell which way each end of the coil goes - either in toward the center, or at a tangent to the outside of the coil.

ALL of these pickups have the black wire going to the center, and the white wire on the outside of the coil. Since black is supposd to be ground, that makes all four of these pickups backwards from what I understood the Fralin guy was trying to tell me.

Did I misunderstand him? Did I get what he was trying to tell me backwards, or did I mistakenly come away thinking that shielding inherently provided by wind direction was imporant, when it really isn't?

Let's not get off on a tangent about magent polarity, RWRP, etc. I understand all that. Please limit this thread to a discussion of whether wind direction on its own has a bearing on how noisy an individaul pickup is.
 
Re: Let's get geeky about winding direction.

It sounds to me like he was trying to discourage you from using other brands of pickups. I've talked about this stuff with some pretty smart winders and techs and I've never heard that.
 
Re: Let's get geeky about winding direction.

ive done a little experimenting with this and honestly couldnt come to a conclusion either way. sometimes i thought i heard a difference sometimes i didnt. my friend and i have been talking about doing a whole bunch of recording/comparisons and thats one of the things i talked about doing. our ears have such short memory that subtle differences can be hard to get a good grasp on
 
Re: Let's get geeky about winding direction.

It would be fun to experiment with it and find out for sure. My idea would be to set a pickup on the bench some distance from a source of noise, say a battery-powered electric shaver. Wire it up with a DPDT switch to swap polarity easily. One could even record both directions into a DAW and compare the amplitudes there.
 
Re: Let's get geeky about winding direction.

I don't think it makes any difference, or at least any significant difference.
 
Re: Let's get geeky about winding direction.

Good. That means if my FleaBay Fralin doesn't phase right with my QP, I can just swap black & white on the Fralin.

I need to play more, and think about this crap less.
 
Re: Let's get geeky about winding direction.

It doesn't make sense to me. The inner part of the winding is still exposed to RF and AC stray fields. Or to put it another way, the "ground" half of a speaker wire doesn't shield one side of the speaker wire. If stray signals can get in anywhere . . . they're in.
 
Re: Let's get geeky about winding direction.

It does make sense to me - think of the coil as an extension of a normal guitar cord, or a Gibson-style, single-conductor shielded cable. The outside is the return signal conductor, and it's also the shield by virtue of the fact that it's grounded. It's not as good as a true balanced 2-conductor-plus-shield setup, but it's better than grounding the center conductor at using the braid as "hot".

The trouble is, I'm seeing all these pickups wired the other way - with the middle grounded and the outer wraps used as the "hot" end of the coil.

Seymour's wiring directions seem to imply the coil direcion doesn't matter - they address the problem of separating the Tele base plate from the black wire, but imply that it's okay to swap balck and white either way, as long a the ground is un-bonded.
 
Re: Let's get geeky about winding direction.

By coincidence I was thinking about the same thing this weekend.

Obviously it can't do anything about the electromagnetic induction from devices that comes in as the 50/60 Hz cycle hum. To shield against that you would need MU metal. The conductor-only shielding we do only helps against electrostatic interference that you hear as random buzzing noise.

I am trying to come up with a reason why using the end of the coil (the outer layers) as a grounded shield is invalid, but offhand I can't. It might be valid if you keep in mind it only acts on electrostatic noise and don't expect the 50/60 Hz cycle hum to get better.

I still think it must somehow be invalid. You see if you put on more winds onto a Strat single coil it hums more. But obviously there's the same amount of outer wire so why doesn't the noise stay the same? Or does the noise only get worse because you usually use thinner wire and you indeed have more winds on the outermost layer?
 
Re: Let's get geeky about winding direction.

It's not as good as a true balanced 2-conductor-plus-shield setup, but it's better than grounding the center conductor at using the braid as "hot".

Hey Rich; I agree with that part. I would never run the braid as hot, but all the single-coils I've seen, simply used two wires. There was no "center" and "shield". In that case, I can't imagine it making a difference.
 
Re: Let's get geeky about winding direction.

I have not noticed any difference tone in direction of winding
But using the start end of the wire for the ground makes more sense
Its quite common that the coil wire can short out on the magnets & still work
so if it does short out on the magnets it usually in the first few hundred turns & with a short at the magnets this short now is where the start of the coil is & everything beyond this is just a ground now ,so your dcr might drop a little but can still work just fine
 
Re: Let's get geeky about winding direction.

hmmm
this is start vs finish wiring right?


coil_splitting.jpg
 
Re: Let's get geeky about winding direction.

hmmm
this is start vs finish wiring right?

Actually, no. There's no correlation between what we're talking about and splitting. At least, not in the sense you mean. You could split between different coils and still have either inside or outside wire be the start or finish of the pup.
 
Re: Let's get geeky about winding direction.

hmm
thought that black and green being the start winding
and the hot/ground connections
then by default
if one uses the red/white pair for hot/ground
then it would be finish/start/start/finish

and thats what I was thinking

as this doesnt effect the tone or noise of the pickup..........
 
Re: Let's get geeky about winding direction.

Grounding the finish lead doesn't "ground" the outer turns. They're just the outer turns, every bit as connected to the hot lead as they are to the ground lead.

But by this logic of outer layers "shielding" if the finish lead is grounded, is the second layer below the outer layer only just a little "less grounder" than the outer layer? Are the turns in the middle of the coil "half and half"? I don't hear any difference when I reverse the leads on my pickups. I really don't think there's anything to it.
 
Re: Let's get geeky about winding direction.

hmm
thought that black and green being the start winding
and the hot/ground connections
then by default
if one uses the red/white pair for hot/ground
then it would be finish/start/start/finish

and thats what I was thinking

as this doesnt effect the tone or noise of the pickup..........

You connect the two start leads (or by some mfrs, the two finish leads) to guarantee that the current in the 2 coils is flowing in opposite directions so you get RWRP and thus a humbucker.
 
Re: Let's get geeky about winding direction.

I'm sorry for the confusion

I thought the discussion was about weither the pickup was
noisy/different in regards to the start/finish or finish/start
and the direction of the wind

my post of the coilspliting image was simply an illustration
 
Re: Let's get geeky about winding direction.

Grounding the finish lead doesn't "ground" the outer turns. They're just the outer turns, every bit as connected to the hot lead as they are to the ground lead.

But by this logic of outer layers "shielding" if the finish lead is grounded, is the second layer below the outer layer only just a little "less grounder" than the outer layer? Are the turns in the middle of the coil "half and half"? I don't hear any difference when I reverse the leads on my pickups. I really don't think there's anything to it.

That's exactly what I thought when I read the OP's post and I don't know squat about pickups. It just didn't seem logical, what the Fralin guy was saying. Like I said, it sounds like he was filling somebody full of bull to convince them to get all Fralin pickups.
 
Re: Let's get geeky about winding direction.

Grounding the finish lead doesn't "ground" the outer turns. They're just the outer turns, every bit as connected to the hot lead as they are to the ground lead.

I disagree. Grounding the finish lead connects the outer turns 7Kohms or more closer to ground than the hot side.

However, I've become convinced it doesn't matter. Tone matters. RWRP matter a little bit. I'll hook my SCs up which ever way works, and stop worrying about it.
 
Re: Let's get geeky about winding direction.

I think it's time to test and record this.

You don't even have to mount the pickup in a guitar.
 
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