Let's talk about the tone chart between the JB and 59 / Custom

[JB6464]

Duncans website states the JB has 5/6/8 EQ curve, and the 59 / Custom has a 6/8/8.
Both using a A5 mag but wound differently of course, but I'm baffled how the 59 / Custom has stronger lows and mids than the JB,
The JB has a pretty strong mid bark to it and I don't hear that coming out of a 59 / Custom when I listen to vids, I hear the 59 / Custom being more scooped with tighter lows.

Am I hearing it wrong or does the 59 / Custom really have more mids but at a different EQ curve.

 

[Masta' C]

#1 rule of SD pickups: Don't go by the tone charts

 

[Clint 55]

The tone charts are bunk. The JB is like 5/10/5, while the 59/C is like 4/3/7.

 

[beaubrummels]

Most of what makes pickups unique happens in the spaces in between the B, M and T that doesn't show on anybody's charts.

 

[JB6464]

The tone charts are bunk. The JB is like 5/10/5, while the 59/C is like 4/3/7.

So basically the 59 / Custom is a lower output Custom 5 but with mismatched coils?
Doe's the mismatched coils have any effect on the midrange.

 

[Clint 55]

Yes, I think there are a bit of sneaky mids caused by the coil mismatch, just not a whole bunch like the chart says. You usually get that from mismatched coils.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Never tried the Custom Hybrid, but the Distortion, for example, I wouldn't say has more mids than the JB. If anything, I found it has more bass and treble.

 

[JB6464]

The tone charts are bunk. The JB is like 5/10/5, while the 59/C is like 4/3/7.

Where would you place a 59/JB hybrid EQ wise?

 

[Clint 55]

I haven't tried a 59/JB, but the hybrids I have tried actually clear out the mids a tad if the other coil is scooped since the JB is so mid heavy. Hybriding the JB with a vintage coil then will add some highs.

 

[Aceman]

Your mistake was looking at the tone charts in the first place.

Hybrid vs JB to me
Bass: Hybrid is a little tighter
Mids: JB has more
Highs: The same, but different.

Hybrid vs C5
Bass: Hybrid tighter, C5 has more
Mids: Hybrid has more, notably more.
Highs: Hybrid is a little more brighter, but JB is more piercing.

 

[Aceman]

Never tried the Custom Hybrid, but the Distortion, for example, I wouldn't say has more mids than the JB. If anything, I found it has more bass and treble.

Man - I do not get your ears. And that's ok.

 

[Synapsys]

Most of what makes pickups unique happens in the spaces in between the B, M and T that doesn't show on anybody's charts.

Spot on.

 

[freefrog]

The pic below shows the response of two bridge humbuckers played in chords from unfretted strings to 12th fret, direct to the board through a 1M input. The one whose response is pictured in blue is a SH4. The other is a Custom/59 Hybrid.



Now, let's explain why even such an "objective" pic... makes very little sense. ;-)

-These pickups weren't tested in a same guitar. Granted, both were in Gibson scaled instruments with glued necks, officially made of the "same" woods (while every tree is different)... but the guitar with the Jeff Beck had a Floyd Rose trem, lighter gauge strings, maybe different pots (I wonder if they weren't 250k controls) and if memory serves me, it was plugged through a LOW capacitance cable, explaining its extended high range. Non limitative list of differences. I could have talked about the angle of the pickup under the strings, for instance, since it affects the tone too...

-Even if I had tested each of these two pickups in a same guitar with the same pots, height settings, angle under the strings and so on, plugging them through a very short VS very long cable would have made at least as much difference as is the pic above, because it's in the nature of passive transducers (which are basically LRC filters half programmed by the capacitance of external wires as well as by the resistance of their pots, the input impedance of the effect or amp in which they're plugged, etc).


On this basis, I don't see how it would be possible to attribute defined BMT values to passive pickups. There's too much interacting variables for that in the external factors shaping their signal, even in a same guitar. IMHO. IME. YMMV.

A while back, Artec published the resistance but also the INDUCTANCE of their pickups and pictured their resonant frequencies with various capacitive loads (IOW: with different virtual lenghts of cable; example with a mini-hum in this pic: https://thumbs.static-thomann.de/thu...od/275408.webp ). THAT was useful. But they have renounced to share such data, sadly.

SIDE NOTE - For those who would want to see the actual measured resonant peaks of an Hybrid humbucker, I've shared a few things there (in the answer 23 specifically):
https://music-electronics-forum.com/...921#post966921

FWIW - two useless cents from a verbose old fart, obviously.

 

[freefrog]

Oh, and... below are the stacked responses of the aforementioned Hybrid VS a SH1. Upper pic = actual output levels. Bottom pic= aligned volumes.



Let's keep in mind that "local" little peaks and dips up to 1 or 2 khz aren't due to the pickups involved but to the height settings of their screw poles and to the acoustic resonance of the guitars used (with insistant frequencies and dead spots due to their inner complex vibrational mode).

Should make obvious what happens in fact : with the Hybrid, all frequencies are louder until the main resonant peak (because of higher inductance and as expected). The 59 is less loud and had a relatively more extended high range, because of its lower inductance.
Perceived differences in bass and mids when these pickups are played are mostly a side effect of these basic differences, paired with the tone shaping action of other factors previously mentioned.

The mismatched coils of the Hybrid are what make its response more "concave" in the high harmonics, BTW. Di-Marzio Dual-resonance obtains similar effects from a similar strategy.

 

[JB6464]

Oh, and... below are the stacked responses of the aforementioned Hybrid VS a SH1. Upper pic = actual output levels. Bottom pic= aligned volumes.



Let's keep in mind that "local" little peaks and dips up to 1 or 2 khz aren't due to the pickups involved but to the height settings of their screw poles and to the acoustic resonance of the guitars used (with insistant frequencies and dead spots due to their inner complex vibrational mode).

Should make obvious what happens in fact : with the Hybrid, all frequencies are louder until the main resonant peak (because of higher inductance and as expected). The 59 is less loud and had a relatively more extended high range, because of its lower inductance.
Perceived differences in bass and mids when these pickups are played are mostly a side effect of these basic differences, paired with the tone shaping action of other factors previously mentioned.

The mismatched coils of the Hybrid are what make its response more "concave" in the high harmonics, BTW. Di-Marzio Dual-resonance obtains similar effects from a similar strategy.

Can you kind of dumb it down for an old school rocker, lol.
Do you physically hear more mids or the same amount of mids with the 59 / C verses the 59 SH1 from the graphs?

 

[freefrog]

Can you kind of dumb it down for an old school rocker, lol.
Do you physically hear more mids or the same amount of mids with the 59 / C verses the 59 SH1 from the graphs?

As you can see, the Hybrid played in chords has apparently more of everything (including mids) up to approximatively 2,5khz - or less of everything between this frequency and 7khz, if we align the graphs on each other. ;-)

Now, let's keep in mind that my pics show the EQing of pickups played direct to the board, IOW totally clean (sonically "naked" so to speak). Such tests don't show how a powerful or weaker pickup interacts with the gain stages of a pedal and/or amp.

Furthermore: being already old but not yet deaf , I also "hear" different frequencies with different pickup models, even when they have really close specs and even when all other parms are strictly identical (that's how I've won a set of boutique humbuckers for free in a shoot-out, 11 years ago, for the record. LOL).
My point was just to recall that EQing in itself a) is a moving target with passive pickups and b) is not necessarily what makes the biggest differences between pickups when we hear them as distinct : The reaction of a transducer to string attack and how its decay/sustain/release dynamically promote such or such frequency range is at least as important IME/ IMHO and can't be reflected by a static BMT chart (or graph). ;-)

 

[JB6464]

Picked up a used 59/C and wired it up this afternoon, I see what it's all about now.
What I hear is a hotter 59 tone with a bump of mids but not excessive.
Doesn't have the compression of the JB but it can keep up with it enough for nice lead work if needed.
Since I have another guitar with an Ant JB in it, I'll ride this one for a while and give it a fair test drive before making a final decision.
Thanks for all the input, everyone.

 

[AdrianSD]

As you can see, the Hybrid played in chords has apparently more of everything (including mids) up to approximatively 2,5khz - or less of everything between this frequency and 7khz, if we align the graphs on each other. ;-)

Now, let's keep in mind that my pics show the EQing of pickups played direct to the board, IOW totally clean (sonically "naked" so to speak). Such tests don't show how a powerful or weaker pickup interacts with the gain stages of a pedal and/or amp.

Furthermore: being already old but not yet deaf , I also "hear" different frequencies with different pickup models, even when they have really close specs and even when all other parms are strictly identical (that's how I've won a set of boutique humbuckers for free in a shoot-out, 11 years ago, for the record. LOL).
My point was just to recall that EQing in itself a) is a moving target with passive pickups and b) is not necessarily what makes the biggest differences between pickups when we hear them as distinct : The reaction of a transducer to string attack and how its decay/sustain/release dynamically promote such or such frequency range is at least as important IME/ IMHO and can't be reflected by a static BMT chart (or graph). ;-)

Your inquisitive nature and neverending curiosity is such an inspiration, thank you