Let's talk greed... Three P-Rails + triple-shots in one guitar!

[matizadomrb]

Hey everybody!

New guy here. This is my first thread (second post). I was doing some research on-line for my next guitar mod project and I ran into the SD forums… WOW I must say! The level of knowledge and expertise here is HUGE! I’m really glad to be here and I certainly hope that my limited knowledge (since I’m a professional musician, studio cat… FAR from being a guitar tech!) but crazy ideas can fuel some interesting topics!

Anyway, on to the subject at hand! I’m working on a guitar project with my black Epiphone Supernova (semi-hollow body, maple ply, rosewood fretboard). It currently has two nickel-plated Gibson 57Classic humbuckers with regular 3-way toggle pups in parallel wiring (they’re two conductors so I currently have no mods on it) using two 300K pots for volume, and two 500K pots for tone (neck with 0.015 cap and bridge with 0.022 cap).

Currently this is a very nice vintage 50’s sounding kinda guitar (which is what I was aiming at when I installed these pickups), but truthfully this Epi is such a great instrument that for some time I had been thinking about turning it into a more versatile beast.

About a month ago a friend of mine showed me this gorgeous Schroeder Semi-Hollow Traditional Singlecut guitar (semi-hollow, Les Paul type body , korina with maple top, ebony fretboard, s-holes and bigsby). The guitar was fitted with three P-Rails (SHPR-1n on neck and middle and SHPR-2b on bridge) and a dual switching system that allows you to choose between a Les Paul config (two pickups, 3-way toggle switch) and a Stratocaster config (three pickups, 5-way blade switch). My friend said he was told the pots were 500K with a 0.047 cap (guitar has master volume and tone knobs). A great and very versatile idea that made me wanna transform my beloved Epi Supernova into a similar monster! I began investigating about the P-Rails and found out about the Triple-Shot mounting rings… And then I became greedy!

So the project evolved into turning the Supernova into a three P-Rails guitar, with Triple-Shot mounting rings (for all 4 options in each pup), individual volume and tone pots (six knobs total like on a Gibson ES-5 Switchmaster) and a Stew-Mac six-way toggle switch (like the one used on Jimmy Page’s Gibson Black Beauty that allows all possible combos between the three pickups). I can’t imagine a more versatile configuration!

Still some questions remain that need answering before I can go ahead with this project. Even though my suggested configuration does allows for a greedy collection of combos, I think the right pot and cap values do play a big role in reaching for the desired tones that the P-Rails are meant to achieve, so I couldn’t just cope with SD’s suggestion of using 500K pots and 0.047 caps for all possible configurations. I did some research on the chameleon technology used on the Gibson Dark Fire/Dusk Tiger/Fireball guitars that emulate different tones and pickup configurations. It turns out that those axes actually change between different pot and cap values within the guitar (probably using resistors that interact with the wiring scheme in different ways?) that combined with pup wiring configurations and splits offer incredibly faithful recreations of various tones. I figure then that that’s the missing link in my project.

 

[matizadomrb]

Re: Let's talk greed... Three P-Rails + triple-shots in one guitar!

So how do I make a scheme that allows me to place three different value caps that I can switch between on each tone pot (rotary switch concept) and how do I do some moding to the pots themselves so that I can go from 250K to 500K (or even higher?). Here are some ideas:

- Cap switching mod for each tone pot using a on/on/on single (SP3T) or double (DP3T) pole 3-way mini switches (0.015, 0.022, and 0.047 which are my favorite values). I will place these well hidden next to each tone knob or next to each pickup ring (in the style of David Gilmour’s Black Fender Strat, which dissimulates the existence of the switch by placing it on the inside of the guitar so that you can only see a part of the pole barely emerging). Check this out as an example:
http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Issue/2 010/Mar/The_Stratocaster_Cap_Switching_Mod.aspx

- Tone pot value switching (for each one as well ). Now this one’s tricky. My first inclination is towards using a 250K/500K concentric pot and moding it somehow so that it works as a regular 250K from 0 to 5, goes no load in the middle and then becomes a regular 500K from 6 to 10 by adding a resistor. Now I have NO CLUE how to pull this one off, but I did get the idea from an interesting mod I read about in different forums (including this one!) about moding a Fender TBX tone pot which is a 250K/1meg concentric pot with an 82K resistor (actually that one might just work fine in itself if it’s possible to dial up a 500K tone somewhere in the 6 to 10 path… Anyone?). Here’s the complete explanation:
http://blueguitar.org/new/schem/_gtr/tbx_fdp.pdf

There’s also the question about what values the volume post should be? My first impulse would be to go with 500Ks as suggested in SD’s diagram for the P-Rails but I’ve also read that volume pot value decisions should take into account the values considered for tone pots. I must confess I have no clue how those relate and affect each other, but that’s what I’ve heard. Any thoughts?

Finally, I’m thinking of using a SHPR-1n for neck, an SHPR-1b for middle and a SHPR-2b for bridge. I’ve read some reviews here about great results by flipping the neck and bridge pickups so that the rail on the neck pup is closer to the neck itself, and so that the rail on the bridge pup is closer to the bridge itself (in a config like that I’m guessing the middle pup should be in the regular neck position with the rail facing south towards the bridge).

Ok guys that’s the story so far. And sorry for the long posts! (had to do two because the forum wouldn't allow such a long one!) I guess I got carried away… Many fellow musicians think I’m a nut case with this stuff and they’re probably right, so I’m just happy to be here because it looks like the right place for a madman like me! Muahahaha!


Cheers!

 

[Mark Le Comte]

Re: Let's talk greed... Three P-Rails + triple-shots in one guitar!

What, no phase switching!

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Let's talk greed... Three P-Rails + triple-shots in one guitar!

Wow, you'll get cable on that thing! Or at least radio and cel phones with all the wires in it :lol:


Seriously, though, sounds like a winning plan to me.

Cap/Pot value mods should be pretty straightforward - you'll start with a 500K pot (or 1Meg if you want to go that high) then switch out various resistors to bring it down to your desired target (i.e. 1Meg down to 500K or 250K, or anywhere in between). Can't really go up from 250K to 500K without introducing some signal loading, as I understand it, so you'd have to start at the top and work you way down.


Push-pull pots can be wired so the switches act independantly of the pot they're attached to, meaning just because the Neck Volume has a push pull, it doesn't have to switch anything about the Neck pickup. You can set it for phase inversion for the middle, or to send the signal to the 500K or 250K side of a concenctric pot, rather than using a resistor mod to change values during the sweep (and thus you keep the full sweep range of the pot).

So if it's gonna have 6 pots, each of those can be a push/pull and affect one pair of options.

 

[matizadomrb]

Re: Let's talk greed... Three P-Rails + triple-shots in one guitar!

What, no phase switching!

It is an option indeed! I can use push/pulls on the volume knobs to achieve this... But that's an easy one so first I wanna solve the other ideas I have because my main goal is to achieve a more precise recreation of the tones the R-Rails aim to achieve (with the switching system of pot and cap values)

 

[matizadomrb]

Re: Let's talk greed... Three P-Rails + triple-shots in one guitar!

Wow, you'll get cable on that thing! Or at least radio and cel phones with all the wires in it :lol:

Hehe that's true... I'll make it real neat inside but it's definitely even gonna add some weight to the axe! haha

Seriously, though, sounds like a winning plan to me.

Cap/Pot value mods should be pretty straightforward - you'll start with a 500K pot (or 1Meg if you want to go that high) then switch out various resistors to bring it down to your desired target (i.e. 1Meg down to 500K or 250K, or anywhere in between). Can't really go up from 250K to 500K without introducing some signal loading, as I understand it, so you'd have to start at the top and work you way down.

Mmmmm every minute I get more and more greedy... Would it be possible to mod a 1meg pot by introducing resistors that get into the signal at different moments of the sweep range?... It would be extremely cool if I could get one pot that goes from 1Meg to 500K and to 250K by just sweeping the knob... I know that with a linear taper pot I could SORT OF achieve this since a 1Meg linear at the middle of the sweep is 500K and further down is 250K but since I'll bleeding treble frequencies when I do that it just won't sound the same... It would ideal if i could have the pot do 1meg, 250K and 500K completely open (as when they're in 10 on the knob)

Push-pull pots can be wired so the switches act independantly of the pot they're attached to, meaning just because the Neck Volume has a push pull, it doesn't have to switch anything about the Neck pickup. You can set it for phase inversion for the middle, or to send the signal to the 500K or 250K side of a concenctric pot, rather than using a resistor mod to change values during the sweep (and thus you keep the full sweep range of the pot).

So if it's gonna have 6 pots, each of those can be a push/pull and affect one pair of options.

Very interesting idea... I like this one much better!... Great great stuff my man!... I'll really like to be able to switch between 250K and 500K pots and keep the full sweep range!... Are there any push/pull concentric pots? Never heard of that before. Or is it something I'll have to build/mod myself?... Or maybe I'm just missing your point... Are you talking for example about using push/pull on the volume that controls where the signal goes in a 250K/500k concentric pot installed in the tone?
Maybe I can evenn mod a pot like that to add a no-load bypass at the 10 position (like a Fender Delta tone pot)... I really like the option of doing those Neil Young's Old-Black straight to output sounds! (which is something I really liked about the TBX mod)

Anyone has any suggestions for volume pot values (how they react to tone pots values) and P-Rails flipping?

Great stuff around here! I most definitely came to the right place!

Cheers!

 

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: Let's talk greed... Three P-Rails + triple-shots in one guitar!

Yes, that's what I meant: You can send the signal to the push/pull switch and then use that to determine if it's going to the 500K or the 250K side of the concentric.

You could also use combinations of 1Meg/500K and 500K/250K concentrics so you've still got 6 vol/tone pots (in 3 holes) and have the other pots as push/pulls to decide which one is active for a given signal path. However, you'd need a Master something (i.e. each pickup can't have its own vol/tone and each vol/tone have its own p/p to select pot values - the concetrics woudl have to be set up for either Vol/Tone or Vol/Vol or Tone/Tone, by which value you wanted applied to which function).

Never seen a push/pull concentric, though it would be nice.
However, there's a space limit issue on that, since a p/p and a concentric are the same height below the mounting shaft, imagine that doubled. You'd need a very thick body, like an old Jazz box. The 335 might be too shallow.

 

[nalo1022]

Re: Let's talk greed... Three P-Rails + triple-shots in one guitar!

I agree with some of what DrNewcentstein said regarding concentric pots. Unique wiring schemes like this are my specialty, and I would b more than happy to draw some stuff up for you. Since most of the options are taken care of via the Triple Shots you have more options available with switches etc. Here is what I would suggest.

-6 way rotary for pickup selection
-3x Concentric pots wired as volume/tone for each pickup.
-2x phase switches (mini toggle) for the bridge and middle pickup.

As far as switching volume resistance values and tone cap values goes there are many options, but it all depends on how many controls you want on the guitar and how easy you want them to be. It would be fairly difficult to obtain all the value switching options you suggested without ALOT of knobs and switches. Also keep in mind if you use audio taper pots for the volume controls use resistors to bring down the value will also affect the taper.

 

[matizadomrb]

Re: Let's talk greed... Three P-Rails + triple-shots in one guitar!

Hey nalo1022!

Thanks for offering to help me out with the diagram! That would be awesome man! I´ll give ya some more details of what I’m thinking about then.

Indeed I’m well aware that all these options (and others that I have in mind which I’ll tell you about in a minute) are gonna require a lot of switches that might compromise the guitar’s original appearance. Looks are important to me as well so I wanna make the mods as dissimulated as possible to try and retain the original look. Therefore many of the decisions I’m making on the wiring scheme take this into consideration.

Now, I’ve been joking around saying this is a crazy greedy project but the truth is that what I’m aiming for here has nothing to do with having the greatest collection of tones possible or the utopist “everything guitar”. It’s about having a guitar that gives me the option of “dialing up” every subtlety possible tone wise speaking , much in the way in which you dial up and shape the guitar signal with effects processors and amps. This I’ve always tried to do with all my guitars, but the P-Rails have potentiated this possibility beyond my wildest dreams if the cards are played correctly. I actually own a Gibson Dark Fire Les Paul, a Fender VG Stratocaster, and a Line6 Acoustic Variax. They’re all very usable tools and very accurate tone collections, but that’s about their stretch and will never be able to achieve the dialing flexibility I’m aiming for here. See what I mean?

But anyway let’s get into the details shall we?! This is going to be a LONG post (actually three posts because of the maximum number of characters restruction... hope the moderators don't kill me for this!) but it is necessary to illustrate the full plan that’s been taking shape in my mind. Take your time with it of course!...

1) Pickups: three P-Rails (SHPR-1n for neck, SHPR-1b for middle and SHPR-2b for bridge). SHPR-1n I will flip so that the Rail is closer to the neck. SHPR-1b I will leave as suggested by SD with the Rail facing south towards the bridge. The SHPR-2b I will flip as well so that the Rail is closer to the bridge. I will order them (in black) from the custom shop so that the logos are in the right position.

2) Mounting rings: triple-shots indeed for coil tapping and series/parallel humbucking options. No brainer here. I’ll get them cream colored so they match the binding on the guitar.

3) Pickup selector: I will use an Stew Mac 6-Way pickup switch (the same used for Jimmy Page’s Gibson Les Paul Custom 3 pickups Black Beauty) (http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Electro...witches_and_knobs/Free-Way_Pickup_Switch.html)
Here’s a wiring scheme that allows for the following options (see page 4): (1) Neck (2) Neck + Bridge (3) Bridge (4) Neck + Middle (5) Neck + Middle + Bridge (6) Middle + Bridge
http://www.stewmac.com/freeinfo/i-0040/i-0040.pdf
Still I will like to change it a lil’ bit and use position 5 for the Middle pickup alone and add a small on/off mini toggle next to the 6-way that allows for the Neck+Middle+Bridge option.
Note: all mini-switches I’m gonna use will be placed inside the guitar (nut/washer) with only the handle coming out of the hole (in the style of David Gilmour’s Black Fender Strat… You can barely notice it!... Check it out here: http://www.militarygearhq.com/ebay/100_8176b.jpg)

4) Phase switches: for this I wanna use three 2-way on/on slide switches (black) placed next to each mounting ring (on the lower side where the pickguard goes… For this I will need to cut the pickguard a lil’ bit so that it doesn’t cover the switches). I want one slide switch for each pup so that I can choose which one is out of phase with the others (this is a feature I really like in Brian May’s Red Special guitar. Check it out: http://www.brianmaycentral.net/phasing.html)

5) Volume and tone control: 3 volumes, 3 tones (one for each pickup). I love having this option in my Gibson ES-5 Switchmaster since it gives a lot of room for some interesting playtime with the pups.

6) Series options: I will like to use three push/pull pots for each volume in order I have each pickup wired in series with the others: (1) pulling the neck volume pot puts the neck pup in series with the other two in parallel (2) pulling the middle volume pot puts the middle pup in series with the other two in parallel (3) pulling the bridge volume pot puts the bridge pup in series with the other two in parallel (4) pulling the neck and middle volume pots puts the neck and middle pups in series with the bridge in parallel (5) pulling the middle and bridge pots puts the middle and bridge pups in series with the neck in parallel (6) pulling the neck and bridge volume pots puts the neck and bridge pups in series with the middle in parallel (7) pulling all three volume pots puts all three pups in series.

 

[matizadomrb]

Re: Let's talk greed... Three P-Rails + triple-shots in one guitar!

7) Capacitors: as I said, I wanna use a cap switching system as shown here: http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Issue/2010/Mar/The_Stratocaster_Cap_Switching_Mod.aspx
I wanna do this for each tone pot so that I can select between three cap values on each pickup. This allows me use a 0.047uF, a 0.022uF or a 0.015uF cap depending on the coil option selected on the P-Rails which will help it achieve the desired tone more accurately. For this I wanna use a single (SP3T) or double pole (DP3T) on/on/on mini-switch strategically placed next to each tone knob (with only the handle showing like on Gilmour’s Black Strat as I mentioned before). I think something like this will work (I like that it is black because it will disguise them a lil’ bit):
http://www.guitarelectronics.com/c=...ON-Mini-Toggle-Switch-w-Bat-Handle-Black.html

There’s also the question of what type of caps I should use. Since the 0.022uF will be used primarily for the humbucker options I’m thinking paper-in-oil /cooper-foil will do the job (I like the Ampohm caps… very vintage “Sprague Bumblebee” like sounding). The 0.015uF is also an option I like on humbuckers but since they are a bit brighter, a paper-in-oil/aluminum-foil may just balanced it enough to combine it with another pup using the 0.022uF option (overall 0.015uF caps will be great for a more precisely controllable tone sweep). On regards to the 0.047uF those will be used primarily for the single coil options so I’m thinking Orange Drops 225P poly-film/foil are a good options.

One thing that is on my mind while I make these decisions is that I can also play around with using a cap value intended for an specific coil option for a different coil option. For example, using the 0.047uF cap with the Rail coil may help me achieve a more modern Straty/Tele sound. Therefore I’ll like to stick with caps that are “versatile enough” to also work on this regard. For example a paper-in-wax/tin-foil cap is very nice for Stratocaster tones but won’t do the trick right for a humbucker. See what I mean?

Now, I could also experiment with using different types of caps depending on the pickup position since they obviously have different tonal characteristics. For example a dime/nickel sized vintage ceramic disc cap gives a nice bite and better upper mid curve which may be good for the neck pup considering the bridge (which uses Alnico 8 magnets) is considerably hotter so this could be a good strategy to balance them a bit more. Also the 0.047uF in the bridge could be paper-in-oil/aluminum-foil (instead of cooper-foil) to smooth it a lil’ bit. But my first instinct is to just keep all the caps “uniformed” to ensure a certain “tonal compatibility”. Does that make some sense?


8) Potentiometers: this is where I need help the most. For the volume pots, I don’t plan on playing around with switching resistance values because there’s already a lot going on in there with the push/pulls that give me the series options. My dilemma here has more to do with the pot value I should use to achieve the most balanced compromise. My first instinct is to just leave them as 500K audio tapers as suggested on SD’s wiring scheme, but I’ve been fooling around with the idea of using 300Ks to aim for a somewhat “middle point”. But honestly I have no idea if that would make any sense or if it will affect the overall tone somehow.

Now, on regards to the tone pots I do have a clear goal in mind: find/mod/build some special pots that allow me to switch between 250K and 500K values (and if possible have a dent for no-load value to achieve an straight to output sound, Neil Young Old-Black style… This is what the Fender Delta tone knob does). For what I’ve been researching, dual concentric 250K/500K pots might do the trick (and maintain the full sweep range on each value as suggested by DrNewcenstain) if I can find a way to have the signal be switched between the stacked pots at my command. Some sort of switch looks necessary to achieve this but I wanna find a more elegant way to pull it off considering that the guitar already has a fair amount of switches laying around.

First thing that comes to my mind is that a dual concentric pot with push/pull capabilities might do the trick (which will be great because that we way I won’t need more switches) but I don’t even know if those exist or if they will be functional because of the height (as the Dr also noted!). Still I ran this idea by my local guitar tech and he recommended I send an email to a company called www.potentiometer.com which claims to be able to custom build any pot imaginable (without requiring that you purchase a large lot). I already have so I’ll keep you posted on what they reply back to me.

 

[matizadomrb]

Re: Let's talk greed... Three P-Rails + triple-shots in one guitar!

(continuation of 8) Potentiometers)

In the meantime I need to look into other options. One possibility is using the famous Fender TBX pot mod (http://blueguitar.org/new/schem/_gtr/tbx_fdp.pdf ). This will indeed sacrifice having the full sweep range since the pot value change happens half way through the sweep (with a no-load dent at the middle that achieves that Fender Delta Tone bypass feature). Still I can live with that, but the main problem I encounter is the fact that the TBX is a 250K/1meg stacked concentric pot and I need 250K/500K, so I’m also looking into the option of further modding the TBX mod so that it works as a 250K/500K (maybe fooling around with a resistor that lowers the load on the second half? I don’t really know).
Any ideas here are welcome. If we need three more switches for this then so be it (we can find a way to “hide them” somewhat as with the other switches), but hopefully we can come up with something elegant.



Well I guess that’s about it! Again sorry for the long post everybody! But on the bright sight it is most an interesting and challenging project to discuss here among the genius minds of this great forum!

Cheers!

 

[nalo1022]

Re: Let's talk greed... Three P-Rails + triple-shots in one guitar!

matizadomrb we are going to be good friends. I love these kinds of projects and especailly the fact that you provided alot of specific info. I still have a couple small question and comments.

-Do you plan on using the stock pickguard to add switches to?
-I agree with 300K pots as a good middle man. If the project doesn't allow 500k are still good and may also be helpful to add some sparkle when all 3 pickups are selected.
-Assuming your guitar is laid out like this I would suggest moving the output jack to the side and using the old hole for a volume/tone and then drill a matching one above it.
-When the pickups are in series do you still want them to have individual volume/tone control? or do you want the pickup(s) in series to have a master volume and master tone and the pickup(s) in parallel to have a master volume and master tone?

 

[matizadomrb]

Re: Let's talk greed... Three P-Rails + triple-shots in one guitar!

matizadomrb we are going to be good friends. I love these kinds of projects and especailly the fact that you provided alot of specific info. I still have a couple small question and comments.

Brother it is MY pleasure! You're a great guy for helping me out like this and I sure am glad to have the chance to discuss the craziness going on in my head with people that actually get it!... As I said before, it looks like I definitely came to the right place!... Believe me, when I presented this idea to the guys I usually talk with about this stuff on other forums (including my modding guru and main inspirational figure Emmet Brown aka Deaf Eddie) everybody said I had finally cracked up and that I was digging too deep! hehehe...

-Do you plan on using the stock pickguard to add switches to?

Not really but I'm absolutely open to it! I'm gonna cut the pickguard a lil' bit anyway to accommodate the phase switches next to the mounting rings, so I don't see why not. Still the main consideration would be making sure that the type of switches used can be placed elegantly in a dissimulate way in order to try and maintain the original look as much as possible.

What do you have in mind here man? Now that you mention this, I did find these at Stew Mac and I thought they were interesting but couldn't figure how to use them in this project:
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Electro...Thumbwheel_Controls.html?tab=Pictures#details
http://www.stewmac.com/freeinfo/i-6153/6153.shatten.0410.pdf

-I agree with 300K pots as a good middle man. If the project doesn't allow 500k are still good and may also be helpful to add some sparkle when all 3 pickups are selected.

I agree. Most people don't know this, but most Gibson guitars (humbucking and P-90) carry 300K Linear Taper pots for volume combined with 500K Audio Taper pots for tone (with 0.022uF caps). Since most Fenders use 250K for volume, I guess 300K would be ideal for P-Rails.

I asked a couple of knowledgeable people from other forums (whose opinions I highly respect) about this and they concurred that the pickups DC Resistance should be considered when making the decision about volume pot values. They said that for pups with resistances below 10K the 500K pots work better to avoid muddiness and for pups above 10K the 300K pots will work better to avoid shrillness. That's why Gibson for example uses 500K volume pots on their Historic reissues (which uses PAF like pickups with low resistances) and 300K for most of their other models (which uses more modern pickups with higher resistances). If you take a look at the DC Resistance charts for the the P-Rails (both regular and hot) you'll see that only the SHPR-1n has values below 10K (P-90 7.2K and Rails 5.45K... Humbucker is above) so I wonder if 500K volume on the neck and 300K volume on middle and bridge will be ideal for this project.

I'll do some research and see if someone has 300K push/pull Linear Taper potentiometers (I've never seen one though). Otherwise I guess 500K will have to do, and as you said they might even give some extra sparkle (as a matter of fact the wood tone on this guitar is a lil' bit on the darker side so 500K might actually work just fine).

Still, if a 300K push/pull pot turns out to be another Yeti chase, there's also the possibility of using a 500K and shunting 750K resistor over it (attach it to both outside lugs?... considering the formula for calculating resistance of resistors in parallel would be 1/300 = 1/500 + 1/x... Don't know if it would be that simple with a push/pull though). If I understand this correctly, that will effectively make it 300K but what I'm not really sure is how that will affect the sweep. For example, I know that a resistor wired in series to the volume will ADD to the value therefore at zero it won't be muted, so I'm guessing that with parallel wiring there shouldn't be a problem with volume decrease as you sweep back until it mutes at zero... Does it makes sense what I'm understanding?... I gotta admit I'm WAY over my head here!

 

[matizadomrb]

Re: Let's talk greed... Three P-Rails + triple-shots in one guitar!

-Assuming your guitar is laid out like this I would suggest moving the output jack to the side and using the old hole for a volume/tone and then drill a matching one above it.

Right ahead of ya bro! I moved the output jack to the side a while ago because I've always find it uncomfortable in the front. In the hole left I placed a Torres Engineering Deluxe Varitone (http://www.torresengineering.com/delvartonful.html). With all the **** going on with this project I decided to just removed it, but I'll like to hear what you think? The assembly is actually quite simple since it's connected directly to the output jack, but it does uses a push/pull pot to access some of the caps so I'm not really sure how I could accommodate it here (at one point I thought of drilling a hole next to the new location of the output jack on the side and place it there with the shaft barely showing, that way I could just pull it when I wanna access it)
Anyway, on regards to the extra volume and tone knobs necessary for the 3 volumes / 3 tones configuration, there's room in the space between the first two knobs and the pickguard (it's tight but certainly enough... they will look good there!)

-When the pickups are in series do you still want them to have individual volume/tone control? or do you want the pickup(s) in series to have a master volume and master tone and the pickup(s) in parallel to have a master volume and master tone?

I'll like to keep them individually actually. Thing is I'm funny about playing with volume and tone in order to find sweet spots by blending the pups on different degrees.



Now I must also inform ya that I received an answer from www.potentiometers.com about the push/pull 250K/500K dual concentric pot. They can indeed build it (they call it a "Push drive mechanism") but apparently it ain't true that they don't require a minimum!... They said the minimum purchase is 1000 units so I guess that's a no no unless someone around here can figure out a way to build them.

So I'm leaning towards using the Fender TBX mod and mod it further using a resistor in parallel that acts on the second half of the sweep which is the 1Meg pot to bring it down to 500K (a 1Meg resistor in parallel instead of in series?). Problem is I have NO CLUE how to wire it in order to achieve this (the explanation offered for the TBX mod is already hard enough for me to fully understand as stated here: http://blueguitar.org/new/schem/_gtr/tbx_fdp.pdf). I did find this great explanation about how to wire resistors to achieve different pot values that might be useful on this regard (I'm carefully studying it to try and figure it out!). Check it out here: http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/tonefreaks/85289-300k-pots-compared-500k.html (it's the post by Senior member Armitage lil' bit below the middle of the page).

Still the idea suggested by DrNewcenstein of going for 250K/500K dual concentric pots and using push/pulls to select if the signal goes to the 250K or the 500K (therefore keeping the full sweep) is still highly appealing to me! Problem is we'll have to find another switching option since there's no room left for more push/pulls (maybe something on the pickguard as you suggested?). Also I will like to combine this somehow with the Fender Delta Tone no-load option that is accessed passed the 10 mark on the knob (which is a detent)

Do you have further suggestions on this regard man? This part of the project is the one that I still can't really figure out! Tough one indeed!

Cheers!

 

[nalo1022]

Re: Let's talk greed... Three P-Rails + triple-shots in one guitar!

Wanted to give you an update. The wiring scheme is coming along nicely. ive ben busy with work but I have the next 2 days off so hopefully the first revision should be done soon.

- Reagrding phase switches: Phase is relative so you really only need a switch on the bridge and middle.
-mounting switches to the pickguard may be the best option for looks and ease of wiring

Like I said Ill should have something for you too look at soon and then we can go ahead and tweak until its perfect

 

[matizadomrb]

Re: Let's talk greed... Three P-Rails + triple-shots in one guitar!

Hey nalo1022!

Sounds great brother! Can't wait to see it!

You're absolutely right about the phase switches. I know that you only need one switch less than the number of pickups, but I like the idea of having one per pup as on Brian May's Red Special guitar (which I own and use a lot in sessions) for convenience and ease of use "on the fly" while playing. See what I mean?... Still if you think it will simplify the wiring scheme somehow then by all means do it as you say!

I agree about switches on the pickguard. Still I think we should try to position them on a way that is "intuitive" to handle specially when playing live. That's why I wanna at least have an on/off mini-toggle next to the 6-way pickup selector for selecting all three pups together, and the three on/on/on mini-toggles for cap switching next or below the tone knobs themselves (so that I easily know where to reach for accessing the correct switch). But I'm wide open to your suggestions since you're the expert here bro!

The on/off slide switches for phase options can indeed be mounted over the pickguard each one next to the pickup it controls so that it is intuitive where my fingers should go (that actually sounds much better than my original idea where I was gonna drill both the pickguard and the guitar to install them!... Don't know how I didn't see that one!). Of course if you decided that the pot value switching must be done with three more switches for each pup then it sounds logical that they will go on the pickguard as well!



You know, I've been also studying another option that got me a lil' bit excited because I've never seen anyone do it, so I'll like your opinion:

Have you ever experimented with phase switching the coils of a humbucker? It occur to me that since the coils of a P-Rail are actually different pickups on themselves with very different tonal characteristics and it makes sense to have the option of putting them in parallel and series (as you do with the Triple-Shots), then it should also make sense to put them out of phase with each other. With the coils of a regular humbucker this probably wouldn't be very useful because the slug and screw coils are so similar and so close to each other that they pretty much cancel one another considering that when put out of phase only the differences in their tonal characteristics scape and can be heard. But the coils of the P-Rails are very different animals and therefore may produce some interesting and exotic low output sounds that can be especially useful when selecting them with the other pickups (even more if they are in series... I'm thinking it would probably be useful to sort of dial some of that Peter Green's nasal tone that legend tells is due to the pickups being "magnetically out-of-phase" because of some reversed magnets... Crazy cool!).

Of course for this we'll need three more switches that I think should be also on/off slides like the ones used for the phase options between pickups. I will also place them next to each pup mounting ring on the pickguard. That way I have all phase options - between pickups and between coils of the same pickup - together using the same kind of switch.

Check this article I found about wiring coils out of phase with each other: http://alexplorer.net/guitar/mods/phase-hum.html

The craziness continues brother! I feel more and more like Dr. Frankenstein! hehehe... This is so much fun!

Cheers!

 

[nalo1022]

Re: Let's talk greed... Three P-Rails + triple-shots in one guitar!

Well I'm getting close to finishing the scheme. Phase switches for the coils of each pickup would be possible to add, but they may add more frustration then function. For example say you switch the phase of the neck humbucker and then split the coil; the phase for that pickup in relation to the other pickups will now be reversed. I can add it if you would like, but I think given the large amount of wiring and switches already present this would add a lot more complexity without much return. This would also hinder the intuitiveness of the switching options.

TL;DR
-Phase for the the coils of each pickup possible but probably not worth it
-Also how many tone cap options do you want? 3 is very possible but more can be added without any more difficulty

 

[nalo1022]

Re: Let's talk greed... Three P-Rails + triple-shots in one guitar!

Ok well I drew up a visual aid so for you to get an idea of how things would be. The pickups are humbuckers but you can imagine they are P-rails(same idea anyway)

-The white marks on the mounting rings are the switches of the Triple Shots
-The blue marks are 2 position slide switches which act as a phase switch for each pickup
-The green marks are 3 position slide switches that act as Off/Parallel/Series
-The gold dual-concentric pots are individual volume and tone for each pickup
-The remaining 3 knobs are rotary switches that allow you to select the type of cap for each tone pot
-The old 3 way toggle gets plugged up

 

[matizadomrb]

Re: Let's talk greed... Three P-Rails + triple-shots in one guitar!

Hey brother!

Nice job my man! Love the layout of the switches and knobs! You were certainly right! Spot on!

Here are my observations regarding the wiring scheme:

- Three 2-position slide switches for parallel/off/series (green marks): GREAT idea man! I completely love it! WAY better than the 6-way toggle and on/off mini-toggle I wanted for pickup selection, and the push/pulls for series/parallel. I’ll like the selection to be like this: up is parallel, middle is off, down is series.

- Three 2-position slide switches for phase options between pickups (blue marks): fantastic as well! I’ll like the selection to be: up in phase, down out of phase

- Three 2-position slide switches for phase options between coils of a pickup (yellow marks): I appreciate your observations on this regard and I’ll most definitely gonna do some testing to see how functional those are before installing them permanently, but I’ll like to have them in the diagram. I’ll like the selection to be: up in phase, down out of phase

- Three gold dual-concentric pots: in here I do wanna go for something different. I think we should use 250K/500K stacks and have both of them function as tone pots only for each pickup (as per DrNewcenstein original idea). This way I can switch between the values of the upper and lower pots and have the full sweep range for each of them (as the Dr suggested!). Of course we will need a switch to select which part of the pot the signal from the pickup is going to go (which is the next step below). We will take care of volume with another option I have in mind.

- Three 3-position mini-toggles (black marks): this will be used to select what part of the dual-concentric pot (upper or lower) the signal from the pickup goes. The selection should be like this: up is 500K (on the concentric pot), middle is 250K (on the concentric pot), down is a by-pass that skips the pot altogether and goes to the output jack directly (the Fender Delta Tone feature). In this case I want mini-toggles instead of slides because I will place them inside the guitar in the way in which David Gilmour’s Black Strat places them under the pickguard with just the handle showing (http://www.stratcat.biz/4022.shtml). It’s really a great unobtrusive way to place switches on a guitar. You can barely notice them!

- The remaining three knobs: rotary switches that allow selection of different caps is a GREAT idea! Love it! This will allow me to place more than the three caps I had in mind plus I can have one position of the rotary act as a bypass (no cap). Really awesome! Just one question: how many positions can the rotary have? So far I wanna use 0.047uF, 0.022uF, 0.015uF, and bypass… How many more options will I have so I can decide the other values? Also what kind of knobs will I need for these rotaries? I don’t care much about chicken knobs so if we can use something else that will be great!

- Three single thumbwheel controls (purple marks): this will be used for volume and are placed easily under the pickguard. Check them out:
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Electron...ctures#details
http://www.stewmac.com/freeinfo/i-61...atten.0410.pdf
This Schatten Thumbwheel Controls are 500K audio tapers (would’ve preferred liners but they don’t build them), so I will like to shunt a 750K resistor for the middle and bridge so they become 300Ks (neck is fine with 500K). For what I understand, this will require that you put the resistor in parallel with with the pots outer lugs. Do you have exprience with this stuff so it can be shown on the diagram? (this is really a weak point in my knowledge). Also do you have any idea how this will affect the sweep?

Ok man that’s my insight so far! You’re really good at this stuff brother! Guru job all the way! Can’t wait to see the diagram! So exciting!

Cheers!

 

[nalo1022]

Re: Let's talk greed... Three P-Rails + triple-shots in one guitar!

OK another update. I have a diagram sketched out on paper that includes the new ideas you brought up, but there are somethings I would like to discuss with you first before I draw a finalized clean diagram.

-Phase switches between the coils of a pickup: With any other pickup this would be a complete waste of time, but considering the unique construction of the P-rail this is a bit less ridiculous. Since phasing is relative to the other coil pickups this presents an interesting case with the P-rail. If you flip the phase switch between the coils the rail will be OOP in relation to the P90. Now in relation to say the Bridge pickup the rail will also be OOP in relation to that pickup. If you flipped the phase switch for the entire neck pickup the P90 will now be OOP in relation to the other pickups. When you start flipping the other phase switches it gets kinda confusing.
Another example is if say you flip the phase switch on the neck pickup and also on the bridge pickup these 2 pickups will be in phase with each other and the middle pickup will be out of phase.

-Rotary switches for tone caps: You can have between 3 and 12 different cap options. Obviously 12 different cap options may be a bit much, but then again you seem to like A LOT of options.

-Since you want the dual concentric pots to be switchable tone pots I thought you may be interested in another idea. Dual gang pots might be an option as well. The DC pots will allow you to adjust the 250k and 500k pot independently, and with a DG pot you turn both pots at the same time. For example if you had the 500k pot turned to 5 and switched to the 250k portion it would also be at 5. Either way this doesn't effect the wiring just how you control them.

-You should get some measurements underneath the pickguard so you know where to place the switches. Also the distance from the edge of the body to the closest pot hole to see if the rotary switches will fit there or have to be placed in the top holes.

-As far as knobs go for the rotary switches, you can use pretty much whatever you like. In general most rotary switches have a solid shaft, so you will need a knob that attaches with a screw, but there are a lot of those. I don't know what you are going for looks wise but I can help find parts that you might like.