*Linear taper* long shaft 500K push pulls?

[ItsaBass]

Re: *Linear taper* long shaft 500K push pulls?

That is too much for me to read in its entirety. But I will say that to me, regardless of whatever technical reasons are being thrown out here, that to those who make serious use of their tone controls, linear taper pots make the best tone pots by far. Sonically speaking, they are in no way like an on/off switch or a bottom-loaded control. Linear taper pots on tone pots provide nice, fine adjustment all the way down the rotation, and allow a precision of high end attenuation that is not possible to achieve with audio taper tone pots. I even like them for volume pots sometimes. It's audio taper pots that are noticeably skewed toward one side of the pot...and usually in a bad way IMO. It can be hard to fine tune the resistance to get the sound you want, especially up near the top end of the pot's travel.

What Gibson does...who cares? You're doing what you want to do here. Forget about Gibson, and also realize that with big guitar companies, nothing is consistent except inconsistency.

 

[David Collins]

Re: *Linear taper* long shaft 500K push pulls?

It's quite interesting that they do indeed specify linear all around for their Page schematic. I'll have to check one out and see if that's actually how they wire his signature model. In any case, since you can't easily source linear push/pulls it seems audio will be the way to go anyway (and I doubt you'll be disappointed).

It should be noted that the schematic you posted has a note on the bottom indicating the change to 300ka (the "a" indicated linear in the old codes, as the part number 440-70-028 is indeed a linear 300k in their old dealer parts lists). That schematic doesn't list it as the volumes only which is odd, but this is what they switched to. The last years of Kalamazoo production can actually be a crap shoot, and I've found pretty much every size and taper of pot in every position in those years without much rhyme or reason. Primarily though, it was linear volume audio tone, and since their move to Nashville this has been quite consistent. Most of their more modern schematics will accurately reflect this if you skim through the others.

If you do still want the abrupt bottom end fade of 500k linear tone pots though, Bourns makes them. Mouser carries them, and I'm sure others.

http://www.mouser.com/Search/m_Prod...GAEpiMZZMtC25l1F4XBU5cZvxsUbIqzw73%2bDB9PpMM=

I only saw the 19mm shafts (which have a 3/8" threaded sleeve I believe), but I know they make the longer ones. A quick search for b500k dpdt brought up some 28mm shafts available in Europe, but I would think with a bit of searching they would have to be available somewhere in the states as well.

Good luck.

 

[David Collins]

Re: *Linear taper* long shaft 500K push pulls?

That is too much for me to read in its entirety. But I will say that to me, regardless of whatever technical reasons are being thrown out here, that to those who make serious use of their tone controls, linear taper pots make the best tone pots by far. Sonically speaking, they are in no way like an on/off switch or a bottom-loaded control. Linear taper pots on tone pots provide nice, fine adjustment all the way down the rotation, and allow a precision of high end attenuation that is not possible to achieve with audio taper tone pots. I even like them for volume pots sometimes. It's audio taper pots that are noticeably skewed toward one side of the pot...and usually in a bad way IMO. It can be hard to fine tune the resistance to get the sound you want, especially up near the top end of the pot's travel.

I truly cannot fathom how one could reach such conclusions. I would be curious as to what specific pots, pickups, amp, settings you are using, and how you tend to use your tone pots in playing. Also, how and where in the rotation would you describe more specifically the abrupt change on audio tone pots?

A linear 500k tone pot takes the entire upper half of the range just to make the difference between a 500k and 250k tone pot in 10, which is really quite small. It's like taking the upper 2/3 of the range and making it a micro adjustment of the range your amp treble would have between 6 and 7, then everything else thrown in to the bottom. If you prefer the tone to work as a micro adjustment for a very narrow and limited range of treble, that's great. I cannot see it described as a smooth and consistent tuning of the entire range from 10-0, as it simply is not. It's an extra smooth adjustment of the brighter area of tone, with all the darker areas compressed in to the bottom 1/4-1/3.

 

[beaubrummels]

Re: *Linear taper* long shaft 500K push pulls?

Thanks for the European connection. That's what I needed from the beginning. I'll look into it further. Most B500K long shaft DPDT I'm finding in EU at the moment appear to be Push/Push, but I'll take it, if that's all there is. (The benefit of Push/Pull for me is I can quickly see what 'mode' I'm in without having to make a sound to figure it out - but either way, I'm trying to get as close as possible to the schematic.)

 

[David Collins]

Re: *Linear taper* long shaft 500K push pulls?

I agree with you about the push/pull preference. I've tried push/push pots a few times thinking they would be easier to tap than to grab and pull, but found them to actually be a bit too easy (easy to accidentally bump in to the up position without meaning it).

 

[ehdwuld]

Re: *Linear taper* long shaft 500K push pulls?

I have a push push on my rg4
Like the push pull it is either up or down
Just getting there requires another push
Rather than a pull

As Dave says they are a bit "touchy "

*(Sent from my durned phone!)*

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: *Linear taper* long shaft 500K push pulls?

I truly cannot fathom how one could reach such conclusions. I would be curious as to what specific pots, pickups, amp, settings you are using, and how you tend to use your tone pots in playing. Also, how and where in the rotation would you describe more specifically the abrupt change on audio tone pots?

A linear 500k tone pot takes the entire upper half of the range just to make the difference between a 500k and 250k tone pot in 10, which is really quite small. It's like taking the upper 2/3 of the range and making it a micro adjustment of the range your amp treble would have between 6 and 7, then everything else thrown in to the bottom. If you prefer the tone to work as a micro adjustment for a very narrow and limited range of treble, that's great. I cannot see it described as a smooth and consistent tuning of the entire range from 10-0, as it simply is not. It's an extra smooth adjustment of the brighter area of tone, with all the darker areas compressed in to the bottom 1/4-1/3.

What you describe the linear taper pot as doing in the upper part of the rotation is what makes it such a great tone control IMO. They are treble cut controls, and I prefer a treble cut control to be very fine in the upper area, not in the near-useless bottom area. Audio taper pots stuff the entire part of a tone pot that I want to use into a very narrow part of the rotation (seems like about 7 or 8 through 10 on most knobs). It makes fine tuning near impossible, and it makes finding the same exact sweet spot a difficult act to reliably repeat.

As for linear pots being bottom loaded, I just don't hear it in real-world sonic results. They are much smoother and more consistent throughout the rotation to my ears than are audio taper pots.

Details aside, my point was that technical arguments on paper are not very useful for making sweeping generalizations to the real-world practitioners of a highly subjective art. You list a bunch of technical reasons that linear taper pots are terrible tone controls. Yet the same things that make them terrible to you are the very things that make them wonderful to me.

Additionally, using things that aren't technically supposed to be used for a certain purpose is the essence of invention, exploration, customization, etc. People should be encouraged to mess around and find what works and what doesn't work for themselves. We aren't building nuclear weapons here. We're amateurs tinkering with guitars. B.F.D. if someone wants to use a linear pot or an audio pot.

 

[David Collins]

Re: *Linear taper* long shaft 500K push pulls?

ItsaBass, it sounds then like linear tone pots are certainly ideal for you, where the range from 10 down to 4-ish does not notably darken the tone as most are familiar with or expect a tone control to behave. Rather, it has the effect of taking the difference in tone between running 500k vs 250k pots and devotes the upper 2/3 of the rotation to dialing in this degree of change. I have no qualms with this whatsoever, and anyone is free to use whatever they like, but I feel your expectations of how a tone control should work and definition of even or smooth effect are quite unique, and different from most people's definition of smooth fade.

My definition of smooth and even (one I believe is shared by most players) is that a change from 10-7, or 7-4, or 4-1 each affect a roughly similar degree of change in tone. In truth even standard 10% audio pots can fall a bit short of this target, having a slightly greater effect through a section in the lower range than an equivalent rotation in the upper. A linear pot pushes it even further from this target. Your linear tone does not affect a similar change in tone when you turn from 9-7 as it does turning from 3-1. Neither does and audio pot, but it is much closer.

I'm not trying to tell anyone what they should use, I am simply trying to help clarify expectations of how different components will respond in a way most can hopefully understand.

And please leave the "theoretical arguments on paper" vs "real-world practitioners of a highly subjective art" debate behind. I am a full-time real-world pracitioner who deals from my own experience in addition to the needs, demands, and feedback from countless highly subjective artists. You make it sound as though I'm speaking from theories and models without experience, which is about as offensive as telling a pilot with 20,000 hours logged that they're just spouting details from the book and it doesn't work that way in the air. I have a hard time seeing how being able to also describe some of the reasons behind why things work should imply that I am only speaking from theory. I have countless hours of hands on experience in the real world, both tailoring circuits to suit my own needs as well as to better meet the demands of all sorts of others.

Just trying to provide as accurate and easily understandable appraisals of how and why different changes can effect your tone and function of your controls. That's why I made the video series linked to earlier. Everyone can wire their guitar however they want, but if they know what kind of change they desire a bit of understanding can help them reach their goal by a much more quick and direct path, rather than meandering through countless changes without clear direction until they happen to find something that works. Understanding a few bits of theory shared by those with extensive experience can usually help.