Looking to go more "vintage".....

[some_dude]

I've always been a punk/grunge guitarist, and as I moved over into metal I started getting more interested in Sludge, and then Doom....

....well, as my tone is evolving, I'm finding that my current sound is too modern. I still love it, but I'm having a hard time taking it to where I want to go.

So, I'm looking at setting the EMG + Recto thing aside for now and investing in another amp/pickup combo.

What I'm looking to do is to get more into the old '70s metal/psychedelic rock type sound....only with a modern, more aggressive edge to it.

I'm thinking about an Electric Amp non-master volume unit. It's sort-of a mix between an old Hiwatt and vintage Orange in tone...and is an off-shoot company that's making Matamp clones now that Matamp is under new ownership who are "cheapening" their products.

So basically, I'm looking at Les Paul + Gibson Iommi's + Electric Amp....and probably a boost and fuzz in there to as it's a non-master volume amp, along with a wah to kick the neck pickup into high for soloing.

Any thoughts?


http://www.electricamp.com/specification.html - Click on the amp knobs at the bottom of the page to hear some clips of Electric Amps.....

 

[SpeedDemon]

Re: Looking to go more "vintage".....

Seeing how you and I are basically after the same sort of tone, from what I know about Electric amps they should be RIGHT what your looking for, but keep in mind they are hard to come by in canada and I have never played one. As of right now I am running a Fuzz into a semi-cranked amp with the treble cranked. And I can get a good fuzzed out metal/rock tone from that but I know a booster would help alot.

 

[some_dude]

Re: Looking to go more "vintage".....

Seeing how you and I are basically after the same sort of tone, from what I know about Electric amps they should be RIGHT what your looking for, but keep in mind they are hard to come by in canada and I have never played one. As of right now I am running a Fuzz into a semi-cranked amp with the treble cranked. And I can get a good fuzzed out metal/rock tone from that but I know a booster would help alot.

Yeah, unless I happen across one on ebay, I'm pretty much stuck buying new.

Right now I'm using my Recto's clean channel with the master volume cranked and using the preamp gain as a volume control.

The second channel is set to raw, with the gain at about 3/4 and the master volume set to ballance the clean channal.

Clean/Raw (aproximates)

Gain 09:00/15:00
Treb 13:30/14:00
Mids 15:00/13:30
Bass 13:30/13:30
Pres 09:30/11:00
Mast Full/10:00

I'm running primarily neck rhythm (EMG 85) with the wah parked as a treble boost, or bridge rhythm (EMG 81) with the wah turned off.

Sometimes when using the wah as a treble boost I'll turn the mids on the raw channel down to around 10:00, just to take some edge off and round things out a bit.

Although, I do find it odd that someone with the screen name of "SpeedDemon" is after the same sort of doomy/sludgy tone that I'm after. :beerchug:

 

[SpeedDemon]

Re: Looking to go more "vintage".....

Yeah, unless I happen across one on ebay, I'm pretty much stuck buying new.

Right now I'm using my Recto's clean channel with the master volume cranked and using the preamp gain as a volume control.

The second channel is set to raw, with the gain at about 3/4 and the master volume set to ballance the clean channal.

Clean/Raw (aproximates)

Gain 09:00/15:00
Treb 13:30/14:00
Mids 15:00/13:30
Bass 13:30/13:30
Pres 09:30/11:00
Mast Full/10:00

I'm running primarily neck rhythm (EMG 85) with the wah parked as a treble boost, or bridge rhythm (EMG 81) with the wah turned off.

Sometimes when using the wah as a treble boost I'll turn the mids on the raw channel down to around 10:00, just to take some edge off and round things out a bit.

Although, I do find it odd that someone with the screen name of "SpeedDemon" is after the same sort of doomy/sludgy tone that I'm after. :beerchug:

About my screen name, My musical tastes have changed ALOT since I registered that screen name, trust me.

 

[some_dude]

Re: Looking to go more "vintage".....

About my screen name, My musical tastes have changed ALOT since I registered that screen name, trust me.

I'm so sick of reading/seeing threads about shred it's not funny.....

.....the more I see of them, the slower I want to play.

 

[SpeedDemon]

Re: Looking to go more "vintage".....

I'm so sick of reading/seeing threads about shred it's not funny.....

.....the more I see of them, the slower I want to play.

I'm with you on that one.

 

[HamerPlyr]

Re: Looking to go more "vintage".....

Daisy, I know that you're a competent player and I'm not questioning you, but...

I might encourage you to explore different modes and Gain and Master settings in your current amp. I think that you might be able to get closer to the tone that you're trying to achieve with the amp that you already own. They're persnickety, as you know, but I think that one of the benefits of that tremendous interaction between controls results in a bunch of different types of tones.

 

[some_dude]

Re: Looking to go more "vintage".....

Daisy, I know that you're a competent player and I'm not questioning you, but...

I might encourage you to explore different modes and Gain and Master settings in your current amp. I think that you might be able to get closer to the tone that you're trying to achieve with the amp that you already own. They're persnickety, as you know, but I think that one of the benefits of that tremendous interaction between controls results in a bunch of different types of tones.

I've been doing that the last week or so. I've been tempted to swap out the 6L6s for a set of EL34s to see if it'll get me closer....but I have to buy 8 of them so it's not exactly a cheap experiment.

I think part of the problem right now is the way 6L6s react....although I love them, they're just not taking me where I want to go.

I think the EMGs might have a part to play in it too, which is why after talking with a friend of mine I'm looking at swapping to Iommi's....(he suggested either Iommi's, Duncan Distortions, or RioGrande BBQ + Genuine Texas, but after listening to some clips of what I was after he figures the Iommi's will get me closer to what I want).

As for fiddling with the gain and master volume.....I can't afford another amp just yet, so I'll be doing that until I can; but I'm pretty sure that even with a tube swap I can get a Rectifier to sound like an old skool, non-master volume Matamp/Electric/Orange.


Sorry for the rambling.....I'm working out some thoughts/ideas as I type.

 

[HamerPlyr]

Re: Looking to go more "vintage".....

If you're power tubes are more than a year old, I would replace them anyway. One of the things that I've noticed is that tired power tubes really get muddy in those amps. More so than in most, I think.

If you've got a buddy who can come over with a guitar with something other than EMG's, you may want to give that a shot.

Look, what do I care if you buy another amp? Knock yourself out, make yourself happy. I would just hate to see a guy spend money to get something that he already had and didn't know it. You could spend the money that you were going to spend on the amp on other cool toys.

Don't know if it will, but I hope it helps.

 

[Guitarist]

Re: Looking to go more "vintage".....

IDK - IME, a Recto will always have that 'thud' low-end and that modern aggressiveness/abrasiveness. Never will exactly do vintage.

 

[HamerPlyr]

Re: Looking to go more "vintage".....

IDK - IME, a Recto will always have that 'thud' low-end and that modern aggressiveness/abrasiveness. Never will exactly do vintage.

Agreed, but the clean channel can make it somewhat worth putting up with that low-end chunk, IMO. I guarantee that you can get closer to the vintage tone than you think. It took me awhile, but I got to something that I can live with. (If not, I switch to my Mark II, but that's another story...lol)

 

[some_dude]

Re: Looking to go more "vintage".....

If you're power tubes are more than a year old, I would replace them anyway. One of the things that I've noticed is that tired power tubes really get muddy in those amps. More so than in most, I think.

If you've got a buddy who can come over with a guitar with something other than EMG's, you may want to give that a shot.

Look, what do I care if you buy another amp? Knock yourself out, make yourself happy. I would just hate to see a guy spend money to get something that he already had and didn't know it. You could spend the money that you were going to spend on the amp on other cool toys.

Don't know if it will, but I hope it helps.

The tubes are still good, and probably have around another 6 months left on them. I agree with the mud comment....the last set of tubes I used up sounded awful.

I have a Strat with a Super Distortion in it, which in some ways is a pretty retro sounding pup, but it can't take the modern out of the amp....even on a cranked clean channel.

Like I said above....I'm not rushing out to buy this next amp (it'll have to wait until Feb/Mar), so until then I'll be working mine to get the tone I'm after....but I can't see me getting a Recto to sound like an early '70s non-master volume Orange/Matamp, and the more I try to tweek the Recto the more it sounds like a punked out Fender.

 

[SpeedDemon]

Re: Looking to go more "vintage".....

Personally, I have been looking at Orange more than Electric because of price, Oranges are cheaper than Electric amps, and as a bonus Im pretty sure you can get Oranges in canada.

 

[kevlar3000]

Re: Looking to go more "vintage".....

Your in Canada, I would try and track down a 70s Garnet BTO. If you can find one, also a 70s Laney Klipp (which are still pretty affordable) both have bypassable fuzz circuits that can get down right freaky. When you bypass the fuzz, both amps are huge and open sounding. Great non master tones. I always sing the praises of Traynor, 60s traynors ( with a choke) in particular
have beautiful gain that also retains and open clarity, some describe it as Marshall meets Hiwatt. Marshall like gain with Hiwatt clarity.....

 

[some_dude]

Re: Looking to go more "vintage".....

Personally, I have been looking at Orange more than Electric because of price, Oranges are cheaper than Electric amps, and as a bonus Im pretty sure you can get Oranges in canada.

I've done a bunch of research (and some play testing to back it up) and it seems that Orange has "modernized" the tone in their amps a long time ago....way before the vintage craze ever came along. I was going to get a old 80s Boogie MkIIB as it had alot of 70s style tone in it, but someone bought it before I could come up with the cash.

Your in Canada, I would try and track down a 70s Garnet BTO. If you can find one, also a 70s Laney Klipp (which are still pretty affordable) both have bypassable fuzz circuits that can get down right freaky. When you bypass the fuzz, both amps are huge and open sounding. Great non master tones. I always sing the praises of Traynor, 60s traynors ( with a choke) in particular
have beautiful gain that also retains and open clarity, some describe it as Marshall meets Hiwatt. Marshall like gain with Hiwatt clarity.....

I'll keep my eyes open for those and give them a try if I see them.

 

[J Moose]

Re: Looking to go more "vintage".....

I used to own a Dual Rectumfryer solo head and sold it after I got my Rivera Rake Reverb...kinda' wish I still had the Boogie because it was so versatile. Ah well. Anyway, with some work you can make that amp sound like almost anything out there. Really, it'll cop a Marshall JTM/800 vibe and can even grok about 80% of an AC30 IF you put the time into tweaking it and finding the right combination of switches. Try running the tube rectifier with spongy and get all the channel cloning stuff to 'vintage' and it'll start to put you in the ball park. I'd leave the 6L6's in there...they tend to be fatter then EL34's which have more upper midrange "bark" but not the same kinda bottom end. If you need a different flavor of grind stick a pedal in front of it. Sometimes you can't beat a Fuzz Face or Big Muff!

What cab are you playing through and what speakers are in it? High power stuff like EV/JBL or low wattage Greenback/V30 types? Low power speakers are softer and will get you even closer.

Another part of it is the guitar & pickups. Swap out the active, high output EMG's for something passive and low to medium output, like '59's or maybe Seth Lovers, the Distortion pickups are still going to be a little too 'modern'. What kinda' axe are you weilding?

 

[some_dude]

Re: Looking to go more "vintage".....

I used to own a Dual Rectumfryer solo head and sold it after I got my Rivera Rake Reverb...kinda' wish I still had the Boogie because it was so versatile. Ah well. Anyway, with some work you can make that amp sound like almost anything out there. Really, it'll cop a Marshall JTM/800 vibe and can even grok about 80% of an AC30 IF you put the time into tweaking it and finding the right combination of switches. Try running the tube rectifier with spongy and get all the channel cloning stuff to 'vintage' and it'll start to put you in the ball park. I'd leave the 6L6's in there...they tend to be fatter then EL34's which have more upper midrange "bark" but not the same kinda bottom end. If you need a different flavor of grind stick a pedal in front of it. Sometimes you can't beat a Fuzz Face or Big Muff!

I'll keep working those knobs and switchs. I don't really like a Big Muff on guitar (love it on bass though).

What cab are you playing through and what speakers are in it? High power stuff like EV/JBL or low wattage Greenback/V30 types? Low power speakers are softer and will get you even closer.

A Mesa Recto 4x12 (V30s) and an Ampeg 2x10 bass cab. The bass cab helps to round out the bottom end and takes some edge off the V30s mid spike.

Another part of it is the guitar & pickups. Swap out the active, high output EMG's for something passive and low to medium output, like '59's or maybe Seth Lovers, the Distortion pickups are still going to be a little too 'modern'. What kinda' axe are you weilding?

Les Paul and Strats. I'll try borrowing a few friends guitars w/ different pickups to see what I think, but like I say.....I doubt I'm going to get a Rectifier to sound like a non-master volume '70s era Orange/Matamp.....maybe I'm tweeking it wrong, but the more Marshall I try to get it the more it sounds like a punk'd out Fender.

 

[J Moose]

Re: Looking to go more "vintage".....

I'll keep working those knobs and switchs. I don't really like a Big Muff on guitar (love it on bass though).

Sometimes just a touch of fuzz is all you need for solos...like a boost pedal that's NOT a Tube Screamer or some offshoot!

Which Recto do you have? Are you using the stuff that's in your link? The preamp/power amp combo with all the FX and stuff? Bypass all the EQ's and get it happening at the preamp/power amp level first.

A Mesa Recto 4x12 (V30s) and an Ampeg 2x10 bass cab. The bass cab helps to round out the bottom end and takes some edge off the V30s mid spike.

Dig it.

I'm guessing you have the tweeter on the bass cab turned off?

Les Paul and Strats. I'll try borrowing a few friends guitars w/ different pickups to see what I think, but like I say.....I doubt I'm going to get a Rectifier to sound like a non-master volume '70s era Orange/Matamp.....maybe I'm tweeking it wrong, but the more Marshall I try to get it the more it sounds like a punk'd out Fender.

Hmmm.

If you really want the Marshall vibe you're gonna have to switch to EL34's because that IS the 'Marshall' sound...more so then 6L6's. Remember that the original Marshall's were loosely based on Fenders, just with British parts & tubes, like the EL34. I doubt you'll ever get your rig to sound identical to a Marshall or Orange but you might be able to cop 70 or 80% of the vibe with some work. Having the amp you want to mimick on hand to compare and do real time A/Bing would help a lot.

Part of that tone comes from pushing the power tubes and getting them to clip & breakup. You're 200 watt power amp has too much headroom for that kinda tone...can you yank power tubes or switch to a 1/2 or 1/4 power mode? Or maybe bridge to mono or use just one side? Vintage = lower power and every stage being pushed to the limits of it's headroom. Modern = Lots of headroom on everystage.

 

[J Moose]

Re: Looking to go more "vintage".....

BTW, are you really happy with the EMG's or do you like passive pickups too? EMG's always have too much 'thrust' and attack for me. They're too quick and about as far from "vintage" as you can get...and it really does start with the guitar.

 

[some_dude]

Re: Looking to go more "vintage".....

Sometimes just a touch of fuzz is all you need for solos...like a boost pedal that's NOT a Tube Screamer or some offshoot!

Which Recto do you have? Are you using the stuff that's in your link? The preamp/power amp combo with all the FX and stuff? Bypass all the EQ's and get it happening at the preamp/power amp level first.

Everything's been removed. I'm basically running;

Gutiar -> Wah -> UniVibe -> Amp

...with nothing in the loop.

For overdrive I have both master volume wide open and I'm using the preamp knob as a volume knob....trust me, there's lots of OD going on....it's just really Fender-ish.

I'm guessing you have the tweeter on the bass cab turned off?

Made that mistake once already. :laugh2:

If you really want the Marshall vibe you're gonna have to switch to EL34's because that IS the 'Marshall' sound...more so then 6L6's. Remember that the original Marshall's were loosely based on Fenders, just with British parts & tubes, like the EL34. I doubt you'll ever get your rig to sound identical to a Marshall or Orange but you might be able to cop 70 or 80% of the vibe with some work. Having the amp you want to mimick on hand to compare and do real time A/Bing would help a lot.

Yeah, that's more or less what I'm figureing. The tone I'm after is fairly British, and the 6L6s won't get me there.

Part of that tone comes from pushing the power tubes and getting them to clip & breakup. You're 200 watt power amp has too much headroom for that kinda tone...can you yank power tubes or switch to a 1/2 or 1/4 power mode? Or maybe bridge to mono or use just one side? Vintage = lower power and every stage being pushed to the limits of it's headroom. Modern = Lots of headroom on everystage.

I'm only running half the amp, but volume isn't really an issue as I'm free to crank it all the way up.....atleast until I gig with it, but for this tweek session I've been going unattenuated to see what I can find.