Magnet Size & Output

[RayBarbeeMusic]

Does magnet size matter? I assume it does, as certain pickups use a double size ceramic (Duncan distortion, Dimarzio super distortion, Deactivator, etc.) so the larger magnet must give more output. If that is the case, why not double sized alnicos? Would that not give you say, A5 tone (or whichever) with more output? Possible those aren't available but I've found odd sized magnets in a number of pickups lately so I assume the big pickup companies can get them.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Magnet Size & Output

Does magnet size matter? I assume it does, as certain pickups use a double size ceramic (Duncan distortion, Dimarzio super distortion, Deactivator, etc.) so the larger magnet must give more output. If that is the case, why not double sized alnicos? Would that not give you say, A5 tone (or whichever) with more output? Possible those aren't available but I've found odd sized magnets in a number of pickups lately so I assume the big pickup companies can get them.

You obviously don't agree with the "less is more" concept, isn't it?

 

[Shooter.556]

Re: Magnet Size & Output

Well the Invader has 3 ceramic magnets in it and it's super high output so yes, bigger or more magnets bigger motor but moderation comes into play.
I think it makes sense in theory but at some point it's counterproductive and possibly moot.
You can only create so much of a magnetic field given the coils limitations.
Wire size plays into it 42,43,44 awg wire all handles resistance differently. 44 takes less wraps than 42 to create the same resistance.
There is a lot of theory involved in your question and I'm kinda just talking out loud right now.
I'd really need to sit on this and do some math and run thru some ohms law calculations to give you a more sensible answer.
My current answer, I think you may gain power to a certain point but the sound of the pickup may suffer by injecting tons of output into it.
I think you may create spikes that are harsh and unpleasant to listen to.

 

[RayBarbeeMusic]

Re: Magnet Size & Output

I'm not asking about other factors, I'm aware of those.

If double size ceramic = more output, but tone should be basically the same since you are holding all things equal and ceramic sounds like ceramic, or A5 sounds like A5, regardless of charge (at least that what makers have told me, that if you under charge A5 to the gauss of A2, it still sounds like A5 not A2), that would seem to open up some possibilities, like a much higher output A5 pickup without resorting to over-winding or ceramics, or even a reasonably hot A3 or A2 pickup without resorting to a different magnet type or over winding. A double sized A3 that could compete with a fully charged A5 for output sure would make for interesting possibilities.

 

[Shooter.556]

Re: Magnet Size & Output

A stronger magnetic field is gonna put the frequencies into the upper mids and create a stronger attack.
A larger magnetic field creates more harmonics in the low end and midrange.
So like stated earlier, the more magnetic field you inject into the pickup the more if an affect it has on your EQ.
You can only put in so much magnetic field or magnetic power into the pickup before it starts affecting your tone.
I am pretty sure that this thought of yours has been thought about by Seymour, Dimarzio and every other pickup guru in the world.
Most winders get their recipes from their windings and magnets are secondary to the equation.
What I mean is, they wind the pickup to sound what they want and use the magnet to achieve the resonant peak, output, EQ and harmonic content they are after. Some charge or degauss magnets accordingly to get the feel and field they are after.
Some just use already charged magnets because its cheaper for production purposes.
Magnets play a big part in tone but I think your magnet the size of Texas theory is counterproductive and you're gonna shoot yourself in the foot pretty quick on your quest for a super pickup.. I think things will go downhill fast once you inject too much magnetic field or too much magnetic power. The pickup will become unusable very quick.


More is not always better, that rule works in the majority of things in life..

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Magnet Size & Output

If double size ceramic = more output, but tone should be basically the same since you are holding all things equal and ceramic sounds like ceramic, or A5 sounds like A5, regardless of charge

Although what you think about the double-size ceramic sounding "the same" as the standard-size is not true, in this case, the difference is NOT really huge.

However, it REALLY IS in the case of alnico. And NOT for the good, talking specifically about A5 and A2, I may add. The same with degaussing. Done right, it can enhance a p'up's tone, if not, it'll turn it into an anemic, puny, useless expensive pile of wire.

HTH,

 

[RayBarbeeMusic]

Re: Magnet Size & Output

Have you actually used a double size Alnico? Can you comment more on your results? When you say it was bad, in what way?

Kinman uses degaussed A5 in his noiseless and they have plenty of output, sound like A5, very low string pull. DiMarzio uses A2 in theirs, but they adjust everything else so it sounds like A5, very low string pull, plenty of output. Two ways to skin a cat, but they are both very effective in practice.

Might be the big boys have thought through this, might be they haven't. Clearly they haven't thought of everything or you wouldn't see all the "hybrids" and mag swaps that go on around these parts. No one thought of a lot of what Steve Blucher designed over the years til he did it.

We could theorize all day about what it "might" do, but if anyone has actually tried it, I'd be curious to know the results in detail.

 

[Shooter.556]

Re: Magnet Size & Output

Have you actually used a double size Alnico? Can you comment more on your results? When you say it was bad, in what way?

Kinman uses degaussed A5 in his noiseless and they have plenty of output, sound like A5, very low string pull. DiMarzio uses A2 in theirs, but they adjust everything else so it sounds like A5, very low string pull, plenty of output. Two ways to skin a cat, but they are both very effective in practice.
Might be the big boys have thought through this, might be they haven't. Clearly they haven't thought of everything or you wouldn't see all the "hybrids" and mag swaps that go on around these parts. No one thought of a lot of what Steve Blucher designed over the years til he did it.

We could theorize all day about what it "might" do, but if anyone has actually tried it, I'd be curious to know the results in detail.

Well, my plan for next year is to buy winder and start building pickups for ****s and giggles.
I live out in the boonies and need a hobby. I do electrical work for a living and I am taking some theory classes at the local community college because our union is offering continuing education and I had to pick some crap to study for my job or I don't get any more raises lol!
I have always worked on my own amps and guitars so pickups have become my next step in my interest as a tinkerer.

http://www.mojotone.com/Pickups_x/PickupWindingTools_x/Mojotone-Pickup-Winding-Machine#.VlpOGSqF5cs

I plan on buying this puppy and tinkering. I have been researching pickup theory and this is where I'm headed.
I have a cushy union job and I'm 18 years from my pension. I am gonna need something to do after retirement and doing guitar and amp repairs and rewinding and winding pickups in Central Kentucky is my retirement plan.
You may look into that winder too. I think it would be a cool little tool to learn how to build pickups on.

 

[dominus]

Re: Magnet Size & Output

Might be the big boys have thought through this, might be they haven't. Clearly they haven't thought of everything or you wouldn't see all the "hybrids" and mag swaps that go on around these parts. No one thought of a lot of what Steve Blucher designed over the years til he did it.

A lot of Dimarzio pickups are hybrids.

 

[RayBarbeeMusic]

Re: Magnet Size & Output

Yeah Dimarzio does a lot more off the wall things than anyone atm. Thanks to Blucher.

I already do guitar and amp mods that are way beyond/ocd. I don't need another ocd hobby. I design pickups, I have someone else wind them.

 

[Rex_Rocker]

Re: Magnet Size & Output

I had read DiMarzio use some double-thick Alnico 5 Magnets for the PAF Pro. I pulled the magnet out of mine and it's just standard-sized (for a DiMarzio, slightly smaller than Duncan).

I have read that one of the Blackout coil packs has an oversized Alnico 5 magnet.

 

[LtKojak]

Re: Magnet Size & Output

Have you actually used a double size Alnico?

Oh, I have. As a matter of fact, two grades: A2 and A5. Didn't like it the one, I absolutely hated the other.

Can you comment more on your results? When you say it was bad, in what way?

The A5 had a lot more bass and a bit more treble than the std counterpart, which is bad enough as it is. Takes "obnoxious" to a whole new level!

A2 was not that bad in the bridge, but it was mud city in the neck. If you wanna use'em for some strange reason (they costed me almost three times the std. did, as they had to custom manufacture a batch just I could sample'em), be aware of this fact, plus, you have to design the coil geometry accordingly to the characteristics of the mag to get any usable result.

you wouldn't see all the "hybrids" and mag swaps that go on around these parts.

As Frank Falbo said, the reason of no "hybrids" made for a long time was that the concept was patented by Di Marzio in the '80s and expired just recently.

I design pickups, I have someone else wind them.

Now you DESIGN p'ups? REALLY? :wow: :bigeyes2:

 

[RayBarbeeMusic]

Re: Magnet Size & Output

The A5 had a lot more bass and a bit more treble than the std counterpart, which is bad enough as it is. Takes "obnoxious" to a whole new level!

A2 was not that bad in the bridge, but it was mud city in the neck. If you wanna use'em for some strange reason (they costed me almost three times the std. did, as they had to custom manufacture a batch just I could sample'em), be aware of this fact, plus, you have to design the coil geometry accordingly to the characteristics of the mag to get any usable result.

That's the info I was looking for.