Magnetic Phase Issue on 3 Pickup Telecaster

[robrob2]

I just picked up a Schatten Design Magnetic Polarity Tester and tested my Modern Player Telecaster Plus HSS. It has an SD Invader Humbucker at the bridge, an SD Strat Quarter Pound RW/RP mid and factory Modern Player Tele at the neck. I made sure to install an RW/RP mid pickup to make sure I'd get hum canceling when the neck + mid was selected and when the mid + bridge split humbucker was selected.

I used the mag polarity tester on the pickups and found this: NS....S....S
When the bridge humbucker is split I get this: N....S....S

I tested the factory pups that I removed and the Modern Player Strat mid pickup indicates North up which would pair correctly with the neck. The Modern Player Humbucker indicates South on the screw coil and North on the slug coil but I don't know which coil was split off with the factory coil split switch. I assume Fender paired them correctly.

I am getting hum canceling between the cut bridge humbucker (North) and the mid pickup (South) but I'm not getting it with the South + South mid and neck pickups. I guess I should have picked up the polarity tester before I ordered the new pickups

I contacted SD tech support before I purchased the pickups to make sure I'd get hum canceling in all positions and they assured me the Strat Quarter Pound RW/RP at the mid position would do that.

I know switching the magnetic polarity of the factory Tele neck pickup would solve my problem but I have been considering replacing the factory Tele Neck pickup anyway so I'll probably just do that and make sure it's a North up pickup or install a single size humbucker like the Area T. It's not worth the trouble of removing the pickup cover and attempting to reverse the pole pieces (how hard is it to remove and replace the pole pieces? Would the pup need to be repotted?).

Another surprise finding is the North South coil orientation of the SD Invader humbucker. According to all the SD wiring diagrams the North start (black) wire is the hot out and the South coil is cut when the coil split switch is thrown (I wired my series/split/parallel switch using SD diagrams). I always assumed the inside coil (closest to the mid pup) would be used and the outer coil would be cut to take advantage of the extra string movement sensed by the inside coil, but the polarity tester says the North coil (active during coil split) is the outside coil. (Can someone confirm a humbucker's North coil should indicate "North" on the polarity tester?). I know I can spin the humbucker around to put the active coil on the inside but the "Seymour Duncan" logo would be upside down. My wife's Lone Star Strat HSS with SD pickups from the factory is setup correctly with SN....S....N with the humbucker inside coil (North) active when split and paired with the mid pickup (South).

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: Magnetic Phase Issue on 3 Pickup Telecaster

Of what material is the bobbin of the stock neck position pickup made? Vulcanised fibreboard or plastic?

If the bobbin is plastic, the magnets sit in discreet tubular channels with no possibility of contacting the copper coil. It is possible to carefully push the magnets out of their channels, flip them end to end and reinsert them. Doing this to all six magnets will reverse the magnetic polarity of the neck pickup. To achieve noise-cancellation, you will then have to swap the output conductor wires from this pickup to the controls.

NOTE - Attempting to press the rod magnets out from a single coil pickup with a fibreboard bobbin will almost certainly destroy the pickup.

 

[ParameterMan]

Re: Magnetic Phase Issue on 3 Pickup Telecaster

Two things:

1) It's my understanding that most Fender singles are opposite magnetic polarity to most Duncan singles. Maybe I heard wrong. That would explain why your "RW/RP" pickup effectively isn't.

2) Duncan bridge pickups usually have the north/slug/black+white coil towards the neck. You can tap on each coil(with split selected) with something steel to see which one is actually getting turned off. If you wired as per the Duncan diagrams, you should have the right one.

You can easily split your bridge pickup to the other coil two different ways: either short the red+white to hot or wire it red->hot, white->ground, green+black together and shorted to ground when split.

 

[ratherdashing]

Re: Magnetic Phase Issue on 3 Pickup Telecaster

Two things:

1) It's my understanding that most Fender singles are opposite magnetic polarity to most Duncan singles. Maybe I heard wrong. That would explain why your "RW/RP" pickup effectively isn't.

2) Duncan bridge pickups usually have the north/slug/black+white coil towards the neck. You can tap on each coil(with split selected) with something steel to see which one is actually getting turned off. If you wired as per the Duncan diagrams, you should have the right one.

You can easily split your bridge pickup to the other coil two different ways: either short the red+white to hot or wire it red->hot, white->ground, green+black together and shorted to ground when split.

Bingo. Fender single coils are the opposite polarity of SD single coils. SD RWRP single coils are designed to hum cancel with a split humbucker, or a SD single coil. They will NOT properly hum cancel with a Fender single coil.

And yeah, the black/white coil in a SD humbucker should be north (the stud coil on a standard humbucker - not visually obvious on an Invader. Maybe you installed it upside down.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Magnetic Phase Issue on 3 Pickup Telecaster

I contacted SD tech support before I purchased the pickups to make sure I'd get hum canceling in all positions and they assured me the Strat Quarter Pound RW/RP at the mid position would do that.

I know switching the magnetic polarity of the factory Tele neck pickup would solve my problem but I have been considering replacing the factory Tele Neck pickup anyway so I'll probably just do that and make sure it's a North up pickup or install a single size humbucker like the Area T. It's not worth the trouble of removing the pickup cover and attempting to reverse the pole pieces (how hard is it to remove and replace the pole pieces? Would the pup need to be repotted?).

Well, they shouldn't have said it like that. The problem that Fender changed their polarity while SD still uses the original one (except in one Antiquity set, to be period correct wrt the Fenders at that time) is very well known.

You generally cannot remove the polepieces in Fender style single coils. You could try overriding polarity by discharging and discharging the Alnico magnets but I am unsure how many people did that successfully.

I can only re-iterate what came up in threads several times in the last months: the basic pickup data for single coils given on the website should indicate polarity.

 

[robrob2]

Re: Magnetic Phase Issue on 3 Pickup Telecaster

And yeah, the black/white coil in a SD humbucker should be north (the stud coil on a standard humbucker - not visually obvious on an Invader. Maybe you installed it upside down.

The Invader is installed so the logo can be read when the guitar is standing in a guitar stand. On my invader the North coil is the coil closest to the bridge--at least that's what the polarity tester indicates and the same indicator shows my wife's HSS Strat with correct polarity and inner coil use when split. The split humbucker does sound good when paired with the mid pickup so it appears to be electrically in phase. Same with the mid + neck, it sounds good.

 

[ParameterMan]

Re: Magnetic Phase Issue on 3 Pickup Telecaster

Yeah, they'll all be "in phase" with each other... it's just the hum-canceling potential that'll be compromised.

I'd still like to see you figure out which coil is truly being split.

 

[robrob2]

Re: Magnetic Phase Issue on 3 Pickup Telecaster

I tapped the pole pieces with a small piece of metal and the humbucker's bridge side coil (North) is hot when split. It would be an easy fix to spin the whole pickup 180 degrees but the logo would be upside down. I'm going to contact SD about returning it for one with the North coil nearest the neck.

I think the moral of this story is invest $9 in a polarity checker to verify what you have before you start to solder. Two polarity issues with two different Seymour Duncan pickups. They really do need to publish what their pickups' polarity is.

 

[orpheo]

Re: Magnetic Phase Issue on 3 Pickup Telecaster

They check each and every one, but I agree that it might be worth publishing the polarity on the pickups but this happens only when pickups are mixed that would rarely go together (like a humbucker and tele singlecoils... )

 

[uOpt]

Re: Magnetic Phase Issue on 3 Pickup Telecaster

They check each and every one, but I agree that it might be worth publishing the polarity on the pickups but this happens only when pickups are mixed that would rarely go together (like a humbucker and tele singlecoils... )

No it's not. Regular Fender single coils are opposite polarity from regular Seymour Duncans. And both Fender and SD have the respective other polarity on some models or times in pickups *not* marked as RWRP.

 

[uOpt]

Re: Magnetic Phase Issue on 3 Pickup Telecaster

I tapped the pole pieces with a small piece of metal and the humbucker's bridge side coil (North) is hot when split. It would be an easy fix to spin the whole pickup 180 degrees but the logo would be upside down. I'm going to contact SD about returning it for one with the North coil nearest the neck.

I think the moral of this story is invest $9 in a polarity checker to verify what you have before you start to solder. Two polarity issues with two different Seymour Duncan pickups. They really do need to publish what their pickups' polarity is and then actually check the polarity before they box them up.

I'd rather flip the magnets.

I also don't see how that solves your problem with the neck-middle combo.

 

[Scott Olson]

Re: Magnetic Phase Issue on 3 Pickup Telecaster

Hi Rob, we do have our 21-day exchange policy, let me know if you have any issues. Just a note since this has recurred a couple times in the last month, our pickups will not hum cancel with stock fender pickups no matter what. They would have to be special ordered just RP, not rw/rp. That's typically the case.

The only way we can say for sure what will hum cancel is if we know what the stock pickup polarity and wind direction is and even that's tricky because wind direction depends on which way the bobbin is oriented.

 

[ratherdashing]

Re: Magnetic Phase Issue on 3 Pickup Telecaster

The Invader is installed so the logo can be read when the guitar is standing in a guitar stand. On my invader the North coil is the coil closest to the bridge--at least that's what the polarity tester indicates and the same indicator shows my wife's HSS Strat with correct polarity and inner coil use when split. The split humbucker does sound good when paired with the mid pickup so it appears to be electrically in phase. Same with the mid + neck, it sounds good.

View attachment 37113

I guess the Invader is the opposite of typical SD humbuckers then, because the white/black coil is usually the stud coil, which is usually the inside coil (closer to the neck on a bridge humbucker).

 

[robrob2]

Re: Magnetic Phase Issue on 3 Pickup Telecaster

I'd rather flip the magnets. I also don't see how that solves your problem with the neck-middle combo.

If I flip the magnets in the humbucker I would then have to rewire it and the serial/split/parallel switch to use the inside coil and reverse its electrical phase (the current electrical phase is correct between the split humbucker and mid pickups). Spinning the entire pickup would keep the currently correct electrical and magnetic phase but make the inside coil active when split.

The neck-middle combo mag polarity is a separate problem. I plan to solve that with a new neck pickup. [Update: I ordered a DiMarzio Area T stacked humbucker to replace the single coil neck. I plan to wire it in series mode without a series/split/parallel switch.]

our pickups will not hum cancel with stock fender pickups no matter what. They would have to be special ordered just RP, not rw/rp. That's typically the case.

It seems the wind direction is correct on all 3 pickups because none of the pickup combinations sound out of phase. It appears only the magnetic polarity is preventing hum cancellation between the mid and neck pickups.

I guess the Invader is the opposite of typical SD humbuckers then, because the white/black coil is usually the stud coil, which is usually the inside coil (closer to the neck on a bridge humbucker).

Yep, it seems the "Seymour Duncan" logo on the Invader is upside down which places the active North coil on the outside (bridge side). It would be better if the inside coil were active because it would sense more string movement. This wouldn't be an issue if the pickup didn't have a logo on it.

 

[robrob2]

Re: Magnetic Phase Issue on 3 Pickup Telecaster

Update: I purchased a DiMarzio Area T stacked humbucker for the neck position. It came with South up polarity but I'm sending it to DiMarzio to have them reverse the polarity. That way I can split the neck stacked humbucker (with the upper, North polarity coil active) and pair it with the mid (South up) SSL-7 RW/RP pickup. So my polarity will end up:

NS...S...N
...........S <- Stacked Humbucker

Split bridge + mid = N...S = hum canceling
Mid + split neck = S...N = hum canceling

 

[robrob2]

Re: Magnetic Phase Issue on 3 Pickup Telecaster

Final update: I installed the reversed polarity Area T pickup in the neck and set it up for auto-split when the 5-way switch is in the neck + mid pickup position. I now have hum canceling in switch position 2 and 4. While in there I wired up the "neck on" mod using a 500k push-pull tone pot. I also upgraded to a .022uF Orange Drop capacitor. With 3 pickups, a bridge humbucker series/split/parallel switch and neck on mod I now have 16 different switch selectable tones.

Also, I absolutely love the tone of the bridge Invader in parallel mode. It's almost a single coil tone with full humbucking noise cancellation. If you have a high output humbucker you really need to install a series/split/parallel switch because the parallel and single coil tones are worth the trouble.

 

[robrob2]

Re: Magnetic Phase Issue on 3 Pickup Telecaster

I was playing my guitar through an amp at a high gain yesterday and noticed a lot of noise from the pickups in single coil mode. The noise was a variable static, not 60Hz hum. I noticed that the neck and bridge humbuckers completely wiped out the static but the split humbucker picked it up as strongly as the single coil mid.

It was cool to hear the noise completely disappear when the mid and split bridge were paired in hum canceling mode. The static was weak but audible when the neck split stacked humbucker (Area T) was paired with the mid. I assume this is caused by the large power output mismatch between the Area T and the Quarter Pound mid. I just want to emphasize that hum canceling pickups reduce or eliminate electrical noise, not just 60Hz (or 50Hz for you Europeans) hum.

It was a lot of extra work to get the magnetic polarity right on this guitar but the results were definitely worth it.

 

[GuitarHawk]

Re: Magnetic Phase Issue on 3 Pickup Telecaster

I know I'm late to chime in here, but is it possible that's the Invader Neck model? That would explain the polarity on that one. Maybe it was already brought up, but this thread is so long I lose track of everything mentioned.

 

[robrob2]

Re: Magnetic Phase Issue on 3 Pickup Telecaster

I know I'm late to chime in here, but is it possible that's the Invader Neck model? That would explain the polarity on that one. Maybe it was already brought up, but this thread is so long I lose track of everything mentioned.

I just double checked the Invader box, it says "Invader SH-8b." The b is for bridge but maybe a neck Invader was put in the wrong box by SD?

 

[GuitarHawk]

Re: Magnetic Phase Issue on 3 Pickup Telecaster

I just double checked the Invader box, it says "Invader SH-8b." The b is for bridge but maybe a neck Invader was put in the wrong box by SD?

I know that if you are looking straight at the face of the Jazz SH-2n, the lead comes out of the back from the upper left corner; basically just rotated 180 degrees compared to a typical bridge model humbucker and then stamped with the logo.

See this diagram: http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/wiring-diagrams/schematics.php?schematic=2h_1v_3w

Not sure if that's true of all neck model pickups, but it may be a clue if you recall from installation. Maybe you can shine a flashlight in there and see the lead??? Also not sure if that's the only difference from a bridge to neck model.