making cheap guitars awesome
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jmh151
Active member
Re: making cheap guitars awesome
Forgive me if I repeat anything, this pose is up to 5 pages, and skimming through I saw alot of no productive posts I didn't have time to read through.
I like modding cheap guitars for myself and friends, since most of my musician friends - performing in bands in front of crowds, all they can afford are Epiphone or Mexican Strats- these guys for the most part play better than I do on my expensive guitars, which I play at home as hobby since I have a nice day job now to buy the more expensive guitars. But the real musicians I know have rely on the cheaper import guitars.
Buying a used import guitar- like an Epiphone Les Paul for $400, or Fender Mexican Strat for $300 and modding it is cost effective. Buying the same guitar new with the intent to mod it isn't cost effective, you're better off saving up and putting the money toward something better.
Forgive me if I repeat anything, this pose is up to 5 pages, and skimming through I saw alot of no productive posts I didn't have time to read through.
I like modding cheap guitars for myself and friends, since most of my musician friends - performing in bands in front of crowds, all they can afford are Epiphone or Mexican Strats- these guys for the most part play better than I do on my expensive guitars, which I play at home as hobby since I have a nice day job now to buy the more expensive guitars. But the real musicians I know have rely on the cheaper import guitars.
Buying a used import guitar- like an Epiphone Les Paul for $400, or Fender Mexican Strat for $300 and modding it is cost effective. Buying the same guitar new with the intent to mod it isn't cost effective, you're better off saving up and putting the money toward something better.
verbotenco
New member
Re: making cheap guitars awesome
Yes definitely there will be differences in tone, due to density of the wood for one. I have 2 guitars, same wood, same pickups but the other one is heavier and thicker and they definitely sound different.
But all these smart-ass allegations that basswood is well balanced, rosewood is dark, mahogany is heavy, etc., etc, will be gone out the window. All these self-proclaimed tone experts with God-gift golden ears will be dead silent when confronted to identify the type of the wood of the particular guitar used in the blind test. Pfftt...
Yes definitely there will be differences in tone, due to density of the wood for one. I have 2 guitars, same wood, same pickups but the other one is heavier and thicker and they definitely sound different.
But all these smart-ass allegations that basswood is well balanced, rosewood is dark, mahogany is heavy, etc., etc, will be gone out the window. All these self-proclaimed tone experts with God-gift golden ears will be dead silent when confronted to identify the type of the wood of the particular guitar used in the blind test. Pfftt...
treyhaislip
Well-known member
verbotenco
New member
Re: making cheap guitars awesome
I don't know if you have just bad luck or you live in Antarctica today and wake up in Timbuktu the next day. I have 1 Chinese Epiphone, 2 Indo Ibanezes, and 2 MIM Strats, and I never have any issue with the smoothness, especially the frets. There are no frets that protrude from the side of the neck. No, really. On the other hand, I almost bought a Japanese Charvel San Dimas but backed out cause the fret wires were sticking out from the side of the neck.
Although there are differences in quality, it is not as wide as the difference in price. It's just the labor and marketing that make all American and Japanese guitars are so expensive.
I don't know if you have just bad luck or you live in Antarctica today and wake up in Timbuktu the next day. I have 1 Chinese Epiphone, 2 Indo Ibanezes, and 2 MIM Strats, and I never have any issue with the smoothness, especially the frets. There are no frets that protrude from the side of the neck. No, really. On the other hand, I almost bought a Japanese Charvel San Dimas but backed out cause the fret wires were sticking out from the side of the neck.
Although there are differences in quality, it is not as wide as the difference in price. It's just the labor and marketing that make all American and Japanese guitars are so expensive.
Re: making cheap guitars awesome
Not so sure if its just the "density". Each wood type or piece would vibrate at a different frequency that the other. You might want to read this : https://www.unibw.de/lrt4/mechanik/mitarbeiter/ehem-mitarbeiter/hfleischer/deadspots-en
Not so sure if its just the "density". Each wood type or piece would vibrate at a different frequency that the other. You might want to read this : https://www.unibw.de/lrt4/mechanik/mitarbeiter/ehem-mitarbeiter/hfleischer/deadspots-en
verbotenco
New member
Re: making cheap guitars awesome
There are other factors. But my point is, there is no way to precisely match all the 'said' properties of certain wood to a certain tone, in a blind test.
There are other factors. But my point is, there is no way to precisely match all the 'said' properties of certain wood to a certain tone, in a blind test.
treyhaislip
Well-known member
Re: making cheap guitars awesome
If you look beside my posts there is a picture of a guitar I built. Under that it has the date I joined this forum AND under that it states my location.
I woke up in Atlanta today just like I did yesterday and the day before for the past 3 years. lol
Please tell me where you are finding these Chinese and Mexican guitars with the same quality as the American made guitars–I've been playing for 20 years and haven't found one yet. You have a different experience than I've had–good for you that the Chinese and Mexican Strats worked out well for you.
Its not just labor and marketing dude that make them more expensive–taxes and laws (Federal, State, County, City, etc), better quality parts/wood, quality control, strict labor laws to follow, benefits and workers comp, utilities, land price/availability (why Japan is investing in battery plants in China because they don't have enough land), being up to code, zoning laws, etc. There is so much costs to do business in America as a manufacturer. Does the Chinese plant care about pollution? In the US you had better or the EPA can shut you down. Etc....not just labor and marketing.
If you look beside my posts there is a picture of a guitar I built. Under that it has the date I joined this forum AND under that it states my location.
I woke up in Atlanta today just like I did yesterday and the day before for the past 3 years. lol Please tell me where you are finding these Chinese and Mexican guitars with the same quality as the American made guitars–I've been playing for 20 years and haven't found one yet. You have a different experience than I've had–good for you that the Chinese and Mexican Strats worked out well for you.
Its not just labor and marketing dude that make them more expensive–taxes and laws (Federal, State, County, City, etc), better quality parts/wood, quality control, strict labor laws to follow, benefits and workers comp, utilities, land price/availability (why Japan is investing in battery plants in China because they don't have enough land), being up to code, zoning laws, etc. There is so much costs to do business in America as a manufacturer. Does the Chinese plant care about pollution? In the US you had better or the EPA can shut you down. Etc....not just labor and marketing.
verbotenco
New member
Re: making cheap guitars awesome
Yup exactly. That's what I meant. Many of those factors you mention, which have NOTHING to do with the materials that go into a guitar: zoning laws, tax laws, land price, EPA bull****, etc. Yeah that's it. And there is no ****ing way I would pay more for a guitar whose price have gone up cause the manufacturer has to please the government, local authorities, etc.
By the way, not all **** made in Asia are ****, FYI. If so, then nobody would buy a ****ing iPad, Blackberry, XBox, Air Jordans, etc. Please, don't single out guitars.
Yup exactly. That's what I meant. Many of those factors you mention, which have NOTHING to do with the materials that go into a guitar: zoning laws, tax laws, land price, EPA bull****, etc. Yeah that's it. And there is no ****ing way I would pay more for a guitar whose price have gone up cause the manufacturer has to please the government, local authorities, etc.
By the way, not all **** made in Asia are ****, FYI. If so, then nobody would buy a ****ing iPad, Blackberry, XBox, Air Jordans, etc. Please, don't single out guitars.
Snake Aces
Singlecut Slut
Re: making cheap guitars awesome
I think somebody needs a manpon.
I think somebody needs a manpon.
treyhaislip
Well-known member
Re: making cheap guitars awesome
Dude, no need to get upset–this is just an internet forum. lol
Well, this is what you originally said about the American prices. So no, its not that Americans want more for the same thing the Mexicans and Chinese would do. I'm an accountant who spent 3 years in Public Accounting and now works in the construction industry, so I would say I know a little thing or two about the costs of operating a business in the US.
Lets see, so to refute American quality you bring up examples of manufactured obsolescence? I would dare say a guitar is different than electronics seeing as electronic devices technology is changing at a MUCH faster rate than guitar technology. As far as shoes are concerned, my Chinese made leather/pleather Sketchers last about 6 months (I am a hard walker) while my high end US Leather Boots have lasted years. My dad still wears a pair of Italian Cowboy boots that he's had before I was born.
Again, no need to get upset man, this is just an internet forum cheers bro!
Dude, no need to get upset–this is just an internet forum. lol
Well, this is what you originally said about the American prices. So no, its not that Americans want more for the same thing the Mexicans and Chinese would do. I'm an accountant who spent 3 years in Public Accounting and now works in the construction industry, so I would say I know a little thing or two about the costs of operating a business in the US.
Lets see, so to refute American quality you bring up examples of manufactured obsolescence? I would dare say a guitar is different than electronics seeing as electronic devices technology is changing at a MUCH faster rate than guitar technology. As far as shoes are concerned, my Chinese made leather/pleather Sketchers last about 6 months (I am a hard walker) while my high end US Leather Boots have lasted years. My dad still wears a pair of Italian Cowboy boots that he's had before I was born.
Again, no need to get upset man, this is just an internet forum
cheers bro!
treyhaislip
Well-known member
Re: making cheap guitars awesome
Oh and speaking on European stuff, why are some European guitars/clothing/cars/etc. more expensive than Chinese and Mexican? Are the European products better/worse than the Americans or the Chinese, Japanese, Mexican, etc...?
See, its totally a preference thing and the market determines value. Why are Americans still making guitars that are expensive? Because the market says there is a need for it. If there was no difference between an American Strat and a Chinese Strat then wouldn't the market phase out the Americans? Wouldn't the Americans be driven out of the market if they just wanted to charge more for the same work? There are various levels of needs and the market values those needs accordingly. Behind those values is a plethora of reasons/costs which is influenced by the Geographic area in which the product is manufactured and also where it is marketed to (taxes and laws, education, tariffs, infrastructure, availability of goods, income brackets, needs/desires, etc.)
Oh and speaking on European stuff, why are some European guitars/clothing/cars/etc. more expensive than Chinese and Mexican? Are the European products better/worse than the Americans or the Chinese, Japanese, Mexican, etc...?
See, its totally a preference thing and the market determines value. Why are Americans still making guitars that are expensive? Because the market says there is a need for it. If there was no difference between an American Strat and a Chinese Strat then wouldn't the market phase out the Americans? Wouldn't the Americans be driven out of the market if they just wanted to charge more for the same work? There are various levels of needs and the market values those needs accordingly. Behind those values is a plethora of reasons/costs which is influenced by the Geographic area in which the product is manufactured and also where it is marketed to (taxes and laws, education, tariffs, infrastructure, availability of goods, income brackets, needs/desires, etc.)
Snake Aces
Singlecut Slut
Re: making cheap guitars awesome
It's interesting to me to see so many struggles in American economics and unemployment but to see so many Americans bashing American-made guitars. It's one of the best things America does IMO so why is there not more pride and support for them?
It's interesting to me to see so many struggles in American economics and unemployment but to see so many Americans bashing American-made guitars. It's one of the best things America does IMO so why is there not more pride and support for them?
Re: making cheap guitars awesome
I gigged throughout High School with a $500 Peavey Tracer Deluxe, a Randall solid state combo through a redbox, and miked. Our other guitarist had a $3000 les paul, a JCM 900 full stack, and a pedal board the size of my car trunk. Funny thing is I was the guy who always cot complimented on tone. That is after I walked them around the dummy cabs my band put up in frontof my lowly rig because of embarrassment.
Here's the thing about it: I still don't own anything that cost more than a grand when new. When I try out the "rolls royce" guitars, I find that they don't do anything better than my midline stuff, don't sound any better, play any better, or stay in tune any better. Granted a PRS custom 24 has a BEAUTIFUL finish compared to my metallic red Big Apple Strat, but aside from the finish, there is nothing that justifies the price difference for what I need from an electric.
I gigged throughout High School with a $500 Peavey Tracer Deluxe, a Randall solid state combo through a redbox, and miked. Our other guitarist had a $3000 les paul, a JCM 900 full stack, and a pedal board the size of my car trunk. Funny thing is I was the guy who always cot complimented on tone. That is after I walked them around the dummy cabs my band put up in frontof my lowly rig because of embarrassment.
Here's the thing about it: I still don't own anything that cost more than a grand when new. When I try out the "rolls royce" guitars, I find that they don't do anything better than my midline stuff, don't sound any better, play any better, or stay in tune any better. Granted a PRS custom 24 has a BEAUTIFUL finish compared to my metallic red Big Apple Strat, but aside from the finish, there is nothing that justifies the price difference for what I need from an electric.
treyhaislip
Well-known member
Re: making cheap guitars awesome
Peavey makes great gear and is highly underrated/valued. My uncle spent time on the road on the East Coast and said that while he loved Mesa Boogie's tone his band used Peaveys because they handled the road better than anything else. I've heard similar things from others...and Lynyrd Skynyrd used Peavey amps.
Peavey makes great gear and is highly underrated/valued. My uncle spent time on the road on the East Coast and said that while he loved Mesa Boogie's tone his band used Peaveys because they handled the road better than anything else. I've heard similar things from others...and Lynyrd Skynyrd used Peavey amps.
GuitarStv
Sock Market Trader
Re: making cheap guitars awesome
I don't have much experience with Chinese or Mexican Strats. It would be an interesting comparison to make between my guitar and the ones on his website though. My charvel set me back 700$ and it looks like similar Wayne guitars run closer to 5000$. That seems like an awful lot of difference to pay for some shielding and a setup. Maybe the wood is worth 4300$ difference?
I don't have much experience with Chinese or Mexican Strats. It would be an interesting comparison to make between my guitar and the ones on his website though. My charvel set me back 700$ and it looks like similar Wayne guitars run closer to 5000$. That seems like an awful lot of difference to pay for some shielding and a setup. Maybe the wood is worth 4300$ difference?
treyhaislip
Well-known member
Re: making cheap guitars awesome
That it would–I started out on a Chinese strat and worked up to American and then building/assembling them myself (which is my favorite now because the options are wide open.) Wayne's prices have gone up gradually ever year–we averaged $2,000 per guitar and I believe the Monster Series (no paint job) started around $1,500 when they first came out but I don't see that on their site right now.
Just curious, how much did you spend after the $700 and was that the new price or used? For my playing, the wood is not worth $4,300 difference (on the $5,000 Wayne) but again, there is a market for the guitars that is allowing that price. Your Charvel was $700 but the US Custom shop models are well over $2,000 new. One of my favorite guitars I've owned was a Japanese Jackson Soloist. I played an American made Soloist the other day–it was very nice but I liked the Japanese better. And me personally, I would rather buy parts from Warmoth/Musikraft and assemble it my way than pay $2,000+ for a custom Charvel (even though I really like the Charvel Custom shops recent creations.)
That it would–I started out on a Chinese strat and worked up to American and then building/assembling them myself (which is my favorite now because the options are wide open.) Wayne's prices have gone up gradually ever year–we averaged $2,000 per guitar and I believe the Monster Series (no paint job) started around $1,500 when they first came out but I don't see that on their site right now.
Just curious, how much did you spend after the $700 and was that the new price or used? For my playing, the wood is not worth $4,300 difference (on the $5,000 Wayne) but again, there is a market for the guitars that is allowing that price. Your Charvel was $700 but the US Custom shop models are well over $2,000 new. One of my favorite guitars I've owned was a Japanese Jackson Soloist. I played an American made Soloist the other day–it was very nice but I liked the Japanese better. And me personally, I would rather buy parts from Warmoth/Musikraft and assemble it my way than pay $2,000+ for a custom Charvel (even though I really like the Charvel Custom shops recent creations.)
DreX
New member
DreX
New member
Re: making cheap guitars awesome
Don't confuse need and want. The definition of effective marketing is to deliberately cause consumers to confuse one for the other.
Sort of like the gender thread, right out of the gate the marketers imply that women 'need' to play electric guitar, and that this gender gap is a problem that requires fixing.
Don't confuse need and want. The definition of effective marketing is to deliberately cause consumers to confuse one for the other.
Sort of like the gender thread, right out of the gate the marketers imply that women 'need' to play electric guitar, and that this gender gap is a problem that requires fixing.
treyhaislip
Well-known member
Re: making cheap guitars awesome
...where did I confuse needs and wants? Economics is at work here–supply and demand determining the prices WITH other factore impacting the price (such as tax and labor laws to name just two.)
One could degrade and simplify any guitar as a want and not a need–you NEED food to survive, not a guitar. You NEED water to survive, not a guitar. That argument boils down to the grand ole economic question of water is more valuable a bucket of water or a bucket of diamonds? If you are in the middle of a desert and there is no water anywhere in sight then a bucket of water would be more valuable than diamonds.
...where did I confuse needs and wants? Economics is at work here–supply and demand determining the prices WITH other factore impacting the price (such as tax and labor laws to name just two.)
One could degrade and simplify any guitar as a want and not a need–you NEED food to survive, not a guitar. You NEED water to survive, not a guitar. That argument boils down to the grand ole economic question of water is more valuable a bucket of water or a bucket of diamonds? If you are in the middle of a desert and there is no water anywhere in sight then a bucket of water would be more valuable than diamonds.
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