making cheap guitars awesome

[DreX]

Re: making cheap guitars awesome

I don't know if you have just bad luck or you live in Antarctica today and wake up in Timbuktu the next day. I have 1 Chinese Epiphone, 2 Indo Ibanezes, and 2 MIM Strats, and I never have any issue with the smoothness, especially the frets. There are no frets that protrude from the side of the neck. No, really. On the other hand, I almost bought a Japanese Charvel San Dimas but backed out cause the fret wires were sticking out from the side of the neck.

My non MIJ imports often have shortcomings, especially the Korean, Chinese and Indonesian guitars. The Indonesian FMS Fenders all had nuts that were nearly a millimeter too high (but almost no guitar manufacturer sets them as low as they should be). My Chinese Epi L.E.'s has really poor finish work, I had to go over them with rubbing compound to remove the fine sand marks. The Korean Epis often have rough/noisy frets so I go over them with microfiber pads. Neck angle is never a problem in any of them. The moral of the story is that all these shortcoming are DIY fixable in under an hour, so you really have to look closely at the wood quality because that's about the only thing you can't replace, and there's virtually no proof that an expensive electric has wood that in some manner objectively out performs the wood found in lower cost electrics.

Although there are differences in quality, it is not as wide as the difference in price. It's just the labor and marketing that make all American and Japanese guitars are so expensive.

And snob appeal, that's a thing.

 

[DreX]

Re: making cheap guitars awesome

...where did I confuse needs and wants? Economics is at work here–supply and demand determining the prices WITH other factore impacting the price (such as tax and labor laws to name just two.)

You said "Because the market says there is a need for it." Demand arises from both need and want, so you can't cast it is as representing only 'need'.

Why that's important is because guitar marketers will try to convince us that we should spend $2000 for that superior craftsmanship that can only be found ~~~***America***~~~ , we never had a need for it, we were talked into wanting it.

 

[Snake Aces]

Re: making cheap guitars awesome

You said "Because the market says there is a need for it." Demand arises from both need and want, so you can't cast it is as representing only 'need'.

Why that's important is because guitar marketers will try to convince us that we should spend $2000 for that superior craftsmanship that can only be found ~~~***America***~~~ , we never had a need for it, we were talked into wanting it.

I think you are completely missing half of the price point. Of course a MIM or Korean made guitar can be sold for less money because the workers are paid less. If you want American made goods to cost close to or the same amount of money then American workers would have to work for less money. You are not just paying for a guitar when you buy an American guitar, you are paying for the American taxes on the company, the health insurance and safety insurance of the company, the employee salary and other costs of doing business in America. If Americans keep importing all their goods because they cost less there is nothing wrong with that decision at all but it comes with a price many do not see so clearly: the loss of jobs. Take a look at Detroit as a prime example.

 

[treyhaislip]

Re: making cheap guitars awesome

You said "Because the market says there is a need for it." Demand arises from both need and want, so you can't cast it is as representing only 'need'.

Why that's important is because guitar marketers will try to convince us that we should spend $2000 for that superior craftsmanship that can only be found ~~~***America***~~~ , we never had a need for it, we were talked into wanting it.

Here is what I actually said: "See, its totally a preference thing and the market determines value. Why are Americans still making guitars that are expensive? Because the market says there is a need for it."

See, its totally a preference thing and the market determines value. Why are Americans still making guitars that are expensive? Because the market says there is a need for it. If there was no difference between an American Strat and a Chinese Strat then wouldn't the market phase out the Americans? Wouldn't the Americans be driven out of the market if they just wanted to charge more for the same work? There are various levels of needs and the market values those needs accordingly. Behind those values is a plethora of reasons/costs which is influenced by the Geographic area in which the product is manufactured and also where it is marketed to (taxes and laws, education, tariffs, infrastructure, availability of goods, income brackets, needs/desires, etc.)

Context clues are taught at an early age And that is not confusing needs and wants because the market could care less about "needs or wants". The market is drive by consumer demand. Did you ever take an Economics course?

I don't know what your point on needs and wants is, but following your argument against me, it sounds like you are saying a Mexican/Chinese guitar is a need while an American guitar is a want. If we are to argue, lets agree on terms before partially quoting eachother Would you say a need is a necessity for survival or the most base/cheapest of anything? Again, I don't know what your point is BUT I do know the market determines value, not needs and wants.

Here is the US, water is cheaper than alcohol. One is a need while the other is want–why is the want more expensive than the need?

 

[DreX]

Re: making cheap guitars awesome

Yes definitely there will be differences in tone, due to density of the wood for one. I have 2 guitars, same wood, same pickups but the other one is heavier and thicker and they definitely sound different.

I have a feeling that if Fender and Gibson actually hand pick woods for guitars that are to be painted a solid color, weight is most likely the criteria they go by, but if the guitar is to be clear coated, they likely look at favorable grain instead. I haven't been to a guitar store lately thanks to the internet, but when I did visit them the MIAs tended to be heavier than the MI somewhereleses, and the MIAs I have on hand also seem to be a bit heavier than the MIMs. I just did quick measures on five Strats behind me, the three MIJ and MIMs are all a few ounces lighter than the MIA's, average of 8 lbs 1 oz versus 8 lbs 4 oz, where the heavier of the two is indeed solid color. That's take it or leave it info, it would be fun to go to a guitar store, weight all the Strats and look for a trend, but I don't think the GC employees would be happy about that.

It's true that grain structure affects acoustical properties, but I get the feeling that density and rigidity probably trump grain structure in their overall contribution to the tone. Fender and Gibson might not even care if heavier woods sound better, they might just conclude that guitarists equate weight with quality and choose heavier woods for that reason alone.

 

[DreX]

Re: making cheap guitars awesome

Here is what I actually said: "See, its totally a preference thing and the market determines value. Why are Americans still making guitars that are expensive? Because the market says there is a need for it."

The market does not say there is a need for it, the market says there is a demand for it.

The problem is that if you use the word "need" it implies that the MIA guitars are desired for some objective reason, as if to say "we need guitars made in America...", like we need sanitary food or safe drugs, when the truth is the consumer is saying "I want guitars made in America". But why do they want it? Is it because they are intrinsically a better value, or is it because they've been sold into a mindset that says it's a better value?

 

[Snake Aces]

Re: making cheap guitars awesome

I have a feeling that if Fender and Gibson actually hand pick woods for guitars that are to be painted a solid color, weight is most likely the criteria they go by, but if the guitar is to be clear coated, they likely look at favorable grain instead. I haven't been to a guitar store lately thanks to the internet, but when I did visit them the MIAs tended to be heavier than the MI somewhereleses, and the MIAs I have on hand also seem to be a bit heavier than the MIMs. I just did quick measures on five Strats behind me, the three MIJ and MIMs are all a few ounces lighter than the MIA's, average of 8 lbs 1 oz versus 8 lbs 4 oz, where the heavier of the two is indeed solid color. That's take it or leave it info, it would be fun to go to a guitar store, weight all the Strats and look for a trend, but I don't think the GC employees would be happy about that.

It's true that grain structure affects acoustical properties, but I get the feeling that density and rigidity probably trump grain structure in their overall contribution to the tone. Fender and Gibson might not even care if heavier woods sound better, they might just conclude that guitarists equate weight with quality and choose heavier woods for that reason alone.

I can agree with some of what you are saying here. However, I have played on a few American guitars by both Fender and Gibson that were extremely light as well. Most of the lighter ones were faded series Gibsons or Highway 1 strats. The Hwy 1 strats that I have played have been fantastic instruments both in feel and tone. The lighter Gibsons that were faded series models were as hit and miss as I've ever seen from a guitar manufacturer. Who knows what the reasoning is behind their selection of wood (if there even is a reasoning or selection at all). My favorite Gibson I ever owned was an extremely heavy solid body LP Studio but my favorite guitars I own are both chambered LP's from Warmoth that are not very heavy. They might have been if they were not chambered though.

 

[treyhaislip]

Re: making cheap guitars awesome

The market does not say there is a need for it, the market says there is a demand for it.

The problem is that if you use the word "need" it implies that the MIA guitars are desired for some objective reason, as if to say "we need guitars made in America...", like we need sanitary food or safe drugs, when the truth is the consumer is saying "I want guitars made in America". But why do they want it? Is it because they are intrinsically a better value, or is it because they've been sold into a mindset that says it's a better value?

I stand by the "need" word dude, especially since we are talking about the marketing determining value. There IS a need for American made guitars because I know quite a few people make most of their purchases from MIA as they possibly can (from vehicles to guns to guitars to tools.) At that's just in my circle of friends.

Again, "If we are to argue, lets agree on terms before partially quoting eachother." What is a need and what is a want? Is this subject to change? Its the age old question of what is more valuable water or diamonds.

The market does not distinguish between needs and wants, so I don't see why you think "needs" is a problem word to use from the market perspective. The market only knows what people are willing to pay for it–regardless of being a need or a want. So again, I don't know why you are harping on my usage of it. But seeing as you haven't answered my other questions I will assume you are wanting to just make that one point

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: making cheap guitars awesome

That it would–I started out on a Chinese strat and worked up to American and then building/assembling them myself (which is my favorite now because the options are wide open.) Wayne's prices have gone up gradually ever year–we averaged $2,000 per guitar and I believe the Monster Series (no paint job) started around $1,500 when they first came out but I don't see that on their site right now.

Just curious, how much did you spend after the $700 and was that the new price or used? For my playing, the wood is not worth $4,300 difference (on the $5,000 Wayne) but again, there is a market for the guitars that is allowing that price. Your Charvel was $700 but the US Custom shop models are well over $2,000 new. One of my favorite guitars I've owned was a Japanese Jackson Soloist. I played an American made Soloist the other day–it was very nice but I liked the Japanese better. And me personally, I would rather buy parts from Warmoth/Musikraft and assemble it my way than pay $2,000+ for a custom Charvel (even though I really like the Charvel Custom shops recent creations.)

I bought the guitar used. I think they were going for about 900$ new. I spent:

30$ - new pickguard
20$ - replacement 5 way superswitch
10$ - shielding tape
6$ - new pots (one of them was a push-pull)
2$ - new knobs

So, it worked out to well under 800$ in the end. There are some people out there who are unwilling or incapable of taking the time to setup or rewire their guitar . . . but even if I had someone in a shop do all the work I did on my own, no way would it have cost more than 400$ with labour. It plays and sounds as nice as any guitar I've ever held.

 

[treyhaislip]

Re: making cheap guitars awesome

I bought the guitar used. I think they were going for about 900$ new. I spent:

30$ - new pickguard
20$ - replacement 5 way superswitch
10$ - shielding tape
6$ - new pots (one of them was a push-pull)
2$ - new knobs

So, it worked out to well under 800$ in the end. There are some people out there who are unwilling or incapable of taking the time to setup or rewire their guitar . . . but even if I had someone in a shop do all the work I did on my own, no way would it have cost more than 400$ with labour. It plays and sounds as nice as any guitar I've ever held.

Glad it worked out for you! And I did that for a while but found I like Warmoth guitars better

 

[DreX]

Re: making cheap guitars awesome

I stand by the "need" word dude, especially since we are talking about the marketing determining value. There IS a need for American made guitars because I know quite a few people make most of their purchases from MIA as they possibly can (from vehicles to guns to guitars to tools.) At that's just in my circle of friends.

Again, "If we are to argue, lets agree on terms before partially quoting eachother." What is a need and what is a want? Is this subject to change? Its the age old question of what is more valuable water or diamonds.

The market does not distinguish between needs and wants, so I don't see why you think "needs" is a problem word to use from the market perspective. The market only knows what people are willing to pay for it–regardless of being a need or a want. So again, I don't know why you are harping on my usage of it. But seeing as you haven't answered my other questions I will assume you are wanting to just make that one point

Here's your full quote:

Oh and speaking on European stuff, why are some European guitars/clothing/cars/etc. more expensive than Chinese and Mexican? Are the European products better/worse than the Americans or the Chinese, Japanese, Mexican, etc...?

See, its totally a preference thing and the market determines value. Why are Americans still making guitars that are expensive? Because the market says there is a need for it. If there was no difference between an American Strat and a Chinese Strat then wouldn't the market phase out the Americans? Wouldn't the Americans be driven out of the market if they just wanted to charge more for the same work? There are various levels of needs and the market values those needs accordingly. Behind those values is a plethora of reasons/costs which is influenced by the Geographic area in which the product is manufactured and also where it is marketed to (taxes and laws, education, tariffs, infrastructure, availability of goods, income brackets, needs/desires, etc.)

You're clearly stating that the fact that demand exists for MIA guitars, and that they don't lose out entirely for foreign made guitars proves that MIA guitars have a worthwhile value proposition. That's not necessarily true. People buy things all the time that are completely without value, like paying $100 for a palm reading for example. The fact that people spend money on something doesn't prove that there is a proportionate value in turn.

 

[treyhaislip]

Re: making cheap guitars awesome

You're clearly stating that the fact that demand exists for MIA guitars, and that they don't lose out entirely for foreign made guitars proves that MIA guitars have a worthwhile value proposition. That's not necessarily true. People buy things all the time that are completely without value, like paying $100 for a palm reading for example. The fact that people spend money on something doesn't prove that there is a proportionate value in turn.

I don't understand what you are trying to say in that first sentence.

And you completely missed my point. The European part was in response to this: "It's just American people want more money to do the same thing that Mexicans and Chinese would do for a fraction of the salary." Its not just Made In America that has a higher price tag than Mexican or Chinese.

There is no value in a palm reading to YOU but there is to others. People believe in palm readings, horoscopes and similar things. While I don't and obviously you don't either, it is incorrect to say it has no value–just like it would be incorrect to say prayer, reading the Bible, meditation, paying tithe (religious donations which some believe is commanded by God), etc. has no value. Again, just because it doesn't have any value to you does not mean it doesn't have any value at all. Counseling could be described as the same way, a lot of counseling sessions involve someone just listening. I know people who think counseling is of no value and therefore a waste of money–but it has value to someone and the market rate of counselors proves that.

The market determines does determine value. Is a Picasso really worth millions of dollars? Not to me but to a group of people it is. There are people who only buy an American made guitar–that creates a need in the market and companies like Fender, Gibson, Martin, etc. are fulfilling that need.

 

[DreX]

Re: making cheap guitars awesome

I don't understand what you are trying to say in that first sentence.

And you completely missed my point. The European part was in response to this: "It's just American people want more money to do the same thing that Mexicans and Chinese would do for a fraction of the salary." Its not just Made In America that has a higher price tag than Mexican or Chinese.

There is no value in a palm reading to YOU but there is to others. People believe in palm readings, horoscopes and similar things. While I don't and obviously you don't either, it is incorrect to say it has no value–just like it would be incorrect to say prayer, reading the Bible, meditation, paying tithe (religious donations which some believe is commanded by God), etc. has no value. Again, just because it doesn't have any value to you does not mean it doesn't have any value at all. Counseling could be described as the same way, a lot of counseling sessions involve someone just listening. I know people who think counseling is of no value and therefore a waste of money–but it has value to someone and the market rate of counselors proves that.

The market determines does determine value. Is a Picasso really worth millions of dollars? Not to me but to a group of people it is. There are people who only buy an American made guitar–that creates a need in the market and companies like Fender, Gibson, Martin, etc. are fulfilling that need.

If you liken buying an MIA to palm reading in that they share perceived value, then what you're admitting that the cost to benefit proposition of an MIA guitar might be wholly imagined in the mind of the consumer (with some help of marketing efforts), which is what I'm contending.

Especially egregious is all the "to my ears, MIA sounds and plays better", because as has been said ad nauseum, many people think wine tastes better if you tell them it was expensive.

 

[voggin]

Re: making cheap guitars awesome

The problem with the argument that demand for higher end guitars is simply due to marketing/brand snobbery is that it ignores the fact that one of the oldest marketing tactics/tricks is to sell something as "just as good as x at a fraction of the cost!" So someone saying they are not influenced by marketing and therefore buy at a lower price point could well be deluding himself. If you believe that Agile is as good as a Gibson (and I'm not criticizing any brands or guitars here, just using an example) it could be because you are making an independent, objective evaluation of the two guitars. However, it could very well be because you have bought all the internet and marketing hype about how Agiles are just as great as Gibsons, have a direct sales model that saves you money by "cutting out the middle man big box store", etc. etc.

Also, is there any greater example of consumerism run amok than when someone says, "I don't buy a PRS, because I could own 7 guitars for that money" and then that person proceeds to buy 7 guitars. Who's the slave to marketing and consumerism, the guy who has had the same Les Paul for 20 years, or the guy with 10 guitars who is constantly flipping them, and ripping out and switching parts?

 

[DreX]

Re: making cheap guitars awesome

The problem with the argument that demand for higher end guitars is simply due to marketing/brand snobbery is that it ignores the fact that one of the oldest marketing tactics/tricks is to sell something as "just as good as x at a fraction of the cost!" So someone saying they are not influenced by marketing and therefore buy at a lower price point could well be deluding himself. If you believe that Agile is as good as a Gibson (and I'm not criticizing any brands or guitars here, just using an example) it could be because you are making an independent, objective evaluation of the two guitars. However, it could very well be because you have bought all the internet and marketing hype about how Agiles are just as great as Gibsons, have a direct sales model that saves you money by "cutting out the middle man big box store", etc. etc.

Bargain hunting doesn't disprove brand snobbery, both exist, usually in the minds of different consumers, but a person can be a penny pincher in one respect and a splurger in another.

Specifically in reference to guitars, most would agree that cheap pickups need to go, and that's why the aftermarket pickup cottage industry is as healthy as it is, but when you start talking about wood and quality of craftsman ship, it gets A LOT fuzzier. There's virtually no proof that higher cost electrics utilize wood that performs better by any objective measure, and the difference in craftsmanship is often spoken of as an abstract "the craftsmanship is superior", and vague on the details, and when there are details given (fret issues, polish detail, setup), they are usually issues that are easily remedied at home. An electric guitar is basically a routed board of wood with hardware attached to it that it's externally accessible. People like to pretend there's all sort of magic at work and want to deny the obvious simplicity of something they might have spent $2000 on.

For all the new features year after year Gibson and Fender roll out, you never hear about them coming up with some new way of measuring the performance value of wood before they make a guitar out of it (I think Martin has, though). People desperately want to believe the $1000 MIAs must be using superior wood, but not even the guitar makers themselves will say this is true, and they can't, for that would be false advertising.

Also, is there any greater example of consumerism run amok than when someone says, "I don't buy a PRS, because I could own 7 guitars for that money" and then that person proceeds to buy 7 guitars. Who's the slave to marketing and consumerism, the guy who has had the same Les Paul for 20 years, or the guy with 10 guitars who is constantly flipping them, and ripping out and switching parts?

False dichotomy.

 

[voggin]

Re: making cheap guitars awesome

How is it a false dichotomy? You say people who buy MIA guitars are suckers for marketing and consumerism. I'm saying purchasers of overseas budget stuff might be worse consumerists than high end purchaser. Asserting this is a false dichotomy is like asserting expensive guitars use superior wood: where is your evidence or support for your assertion?

 

[verbotenco]

Re: making cheap guitars awesome

Dude, no need to get upset–this is just an internet forum. lol



Well, this is what you originally said about the American prices. So no, its not that Americans want more for the same thing the Mexicans and Chinese would do. I'm an accountant who spent 3 years in Public Accounting and now works in the construction industry, so I would say I know a little thing or two about the costs of operating a business in the US.

Lets see, so to refute American quality you bring up examples of manufactured obsolescence? I would dare say a guitar is different than electronics seeing as electronic devices technology is changing at a MUCH faster rate than guitar technology. As far as shoes are concerned, my Chinese made leather/pleather Sketchers last about 6 months (I am a hard walker) while my high end US Leather Boots have lasted years. My dad still wears a pair of Italian Cowboy boots that he's had before I was born.

Again, no need to get upset man, this is just an internet forum cheers bro!

Not upset man. It's just my filthy mouth. We are having fun, hopefully.

The problem is, the golden ears who have been loyal members of this SUDGF for 10 ****ing years just can't stand people who question their intelligent sense (about tone), or just by having a 'differing' opinion. Ha!

That's why healthy conversation often gets twisted to personal attacks, infraction this, infraction that, warning this, warning that, pfft... I am not surprised if there is an underground movement among members who share the same belief, whose mission is to attack and yank anyone who oppose their ideas.

 

[verbotenco]

Re: making cheap guitars awesome

I don't have much experience with Chinese or Mexican Strats. It would be an interesting comparison to make between my guitar and the ones on his website though. My charvel set me back 700$ and it looks like similar Wayne guitars run closer to 5000$. That seems like an awful lot of difference to pay for some shielding and a setup. Maybe the wood is worth 4300$ difference?

That's what I have been trying to point out. Even if all the costs of doing business in the US have been factored in, as well as the grade AAA material put into the guitar, the end result just does not justify the thousands of dollars difference in price. I suppose the margin is the intrinsic value (pride, prestige, bragging right, personal satisfaction) that the manufacturer aims to sell to the market. Why else do you think people buy a Ferrari or a Bentley or a Rolex? It's the same thing as holding a Tom Anderson or a Suhr in front of your friends, even though an MIM Strat might do just as good, if 'tone' and 'guitar playing' are the only important factors.

 

[Demanic]

Re: making cheap guitars awesome

Sometimes, it's all you can do to get a low end model for small cash, with the hopes of someday, upgrading it. I'm not talking buying garbage, but just the lowest end, dead stock version of a better guitar. Then just start swapping what parts you can, for better ones. As long as the basic build is solid, it may be worth it, as long as you plan to keep it.

 

[DreX]

Re: making cheap guitars awesome

I suppose the margin is the intrinsic value (pride, prestige, bragging right, personal satisfaction)

That would be extrinsic value since you're using the guitar to get at those other things, while the guitar itself doesn't embody those qualities.