Mic overload to the board--what am I doing wrong?

[Rich_T]

Re: Mic overload to the board--what am I doing wrong?

I have never seen anyone use a condensor to record electric guitars. Acoustic yes, but not electric. If they used two mics, they were both dynamics. The one placed further away, if being used, would be a uni-directional dynamic so that nothing else around it would bleed too much. Condensors can pick up mating mice in the opposite corner if you're not careful with the level.

This doesn't mean it can't be done, just not something I would do or was taught in technical school (there were audio classes).

Condensor mics are very commonly used on guitar amps. Even at pumping volumes you can get some exceelent results from a condenser. I have done so on numerous occasions. Mixing a dynamic with a condenser can get a huge sound full of body and character, and it stops it sounding like every other SM57 recording out there.

 

[J Moose]

Re: Mic overload to the board--what am I doing wrong?

I have never seen anyone use a condensor to record electric guitars. Acoustic yes, but not electric. If they used two mics, they were both dynamics. The one placed further away, if being used, would be a uni-directional dynamic so that nothing else around it would bleed too much. Condensors can pick up mating mice in the opposite corner if you're not careful with the level.

This doesn't mean it can't be done, just not something I would do or was taught in technical school (there were audio classes).

It's a BIG world out there! People do LOTS of things that aren't "taught" in audio skool...because lets face it, if those teachers were great they'd be makin' rekkids, not teaching.

Here's a couple of pics from the session I just finished out in wunderful downtown Bloomington IL at www.oxidelounge.com I had to "mix & fix" a couple of things for a record so I was playing while my buddy Tony was engineering & co-producing.

Anywhooo...that's a Blue Dragonfly & Baby Bottle on the grill of that Trem-O-Verb combo which wasn't dimed but was pretty healthy! Two large diaphragm condensors with a HIGH output...mashed right up there and no overload problems of any sort just great tone! The mic in front of the Marshall/Mesa 2x12 was Merle Haggards old SM7 from the touring days.

Here I am, Mr. Moose hiding behind the Les Paul, doing whatever it takes to make the record great!

The mic overloading thing sounds like a gain staging issue. I'd examine that first and if the mics are still clipping the preamps then you'll need one of these or something like it. Shure makes 'em, so do Horizon, Whirlwind and a bajillion other companies. Really a lifesaver on SOOOOO many things! The best $20-40 you can spend...I don't travel without at least two in my bag. The 20dB is pretty safe and covers about 90% of what you'd need it for...somtimes 10dB just isn't enough, especially for something like kick drum or snare on a Smackie or some other piece 'o poo.

http://www.markertek.com/SearchProduct.asp?item=BB-PAD-10&off=37&sort=prod

 

[75lespaul]

Re: Mic overload to the board--what am I doing wrong?

How would I go about looking into a gain staging issue? My setup is mic/Brick/Tascam 1804 Firewire (phantom power off)/computer. The overload is happening at the Tascam as well as the computer. I've managed to do better by putting the mic about three feet above the speaker and five feet back. The VTB-1 is also better at not overdriving as much.

 

[J Moose]

Re: Mic overload to the board--what am I doing wrong?

How would I go about looking into a gain staging issue? My setup is mic/Brick/Tascam 1804 Firewire (phantom power off)/computer. The overload is happening at the Tascam as well as the computer. I've managed to do better by putting the mic about three feet above the speaker and five feet back. The VTB-1 is also better at not overdriving as much.

Ehhh...just make sure that each device is putting out & receiving a 0VU signal so there's some balance there. If say, the mic amp is putting out +15dBVU and the input of the compressor (or whatever the next piece is) is getting that and you have the input gained turned WAAAAY down to compensate then you have a "gain staging issue". If what I just said makes no sense at all then lemme know and I'll suggest a couple three books to check out.

Off the top of my head, I'd say it sounds like your running a micamp into a micamp which can be cool but will generate LOTS of distortion :laugh2: The XLR (3-prong cable) can carry either mic OR line level...and you'd be running line level out of the Brick (pretty kool BTW) into a line level input of the Tascam. Since you said "phantom is off" then I'm gussing that you're going into an XLR on the Tascam?!? Yes no???

That's bad.

Fix that. Run into the line level input of the Tascam.

It's also HIGHLY possible; depending on how loud the 'source' is, where the mic is placed, what mic it is and a handful of other things that either the microphone OR the mic amp is clipping. If it's the former then a different mic or placement can solve the problem. If the latter...then you need an in-line pad. Again...if this makes ZERO sense then I'll recommend a solid book.

You know what the REALLY crazy thing about this is?!?

We're talking about stuff I hear & correct in about 20 seconds. Takes WAY longer to type out :chairfall

Regards,

 

[75lespaul]

Re: Mic overload to the board--what am I doing wrong?

Ehhh...just make sure that each device is putting out & receiving a 0VU signal so there's some balance there. If say, the mic amp is putting out +15dBVU and the input of the compressor (or whatever the next piece is) is getting that and you have the input gained turned WAAAAY down to compensate then you have a "gain staging issue". If what I just said makes no sense at all then lemme know and I'll suggest a couple three books to check out.

Off the top of my head, I'd say it sounds like your running a micamp into a micamp which can be cool but will generate LOTS of distortion :laugh2: The XLR (3-prong cable) can carry either mic OR line level...and you'd be running line level out of the Brick (pretty kool BTW) into a line level input of the Tascam. Since you said "phantom is off" then I'm gussing that you're going into an XLR on the Tascam?!? Yes no???

That's bad.

Fix that. Run into the line level input of the Tascam.

It's also HIGHLY possible; depending on how loud the 'source' is, where the mic is placed, what mic it is and a handful of other things that either the microphone OR the mic amp is clipping. If it's the former then a different mic or placement can solve the problem. If the latter...then you need an in-line pad. Again...if this makes ZERO sense then I'll recommend a solid book.

You know what the REALLY crazy thing about this is?!?

We're talking about stuff I hear & correct in about 20 seconds. Takes WAY longer to type out :chairfall

Regards,

I'm really new with controlling my own recording equipment, as far as preamps and mic placement so I appreciate your input. I had a feeling that's what you meant by gain staging, but I just wanted to make sure.

You hit the nail right on the head. XLR from mic to preamp input then XLR out on preamp to XLR in on Tascam. So now it should be mic to XLR input on preamp, then 1/4" out on preamp to 1/4" in on the Tascam. The XLR inputs I guess are only for directly plugging the mic into the board.

I'm such a newbie at this, the book recommendations would be great. As you can see, I had the right idea, but the wrong application theory.

Moose, you rule! Thank you and please let me know if I got the hang of it now.

 

[Rich_T]

Re: Mic overload to the board--what am I doing wrong?

I recommend "Modern Recording Techniques" by Davind Miles Huber. It really is the bible on my course.

 

[Brow]

Re: Mic overload to the board--what am I doing wrong?

Anywhooo...that's a Blue Dragonfly & Baby Bottle on the grill of that Trem-O-Verb combo which wasn't dimed but was pretty healthy! Two large diaphragm condensors with a HIGH output...mashed right up there and no overload problems of any sort just great tone! The mic in front of the Marshall/Mesa 2x12 was Merle Haggards old SM7 from the touring days.

I love my Blue Baby Bottle mic for recording guitars

Do you happen to have a DI Box with a pad switch on it inline with your Blue Baby Bottle? As I've found it to be a very sensitive mic and can't get the mic within 2 or 3 feet of a loud amp without it distorting the input of the desk.

Sorry to go off topic

 

[75lespaul]

Re: Mic overload to the board--what am I doing wrong?

BRAIN HEMMORAGE!!!!!!!! :yell:

Okay, of course thinking that all inputs are the same and one just has better sound quality than the other (that's how the difference between XLR & 1/4" was explained to me many years ago) I never thought about db levels.

I looked at my manual and on my Tascam the XLR/1/4" combo inputs are +11 dbu balanced TRS inputs--these are the ones I've been using. The other four 1/4" only inputs are +4 dbu balanced TRS inputs. I now assume those are the inputs I should have been using all along coming from the balanced XLR out of the pre. Since I only have XLR cables, I'm going to get four XLR to 1/4" TRS adapters. If I'm wrong, please let me know, but from the info everybody's given me, I think that's the problem.

 

[J Moose]

Re: Mic overload to the board--what am I doing wrong?

Do you happen to have a DI Box with a pad switch on it inline with your Blue Baby Bottle? As I've found it to be a very sensitive mic and can't get the mic within 2 or 3 feet of a loud amp without it distorting the input of the desk.

DI box?? 'Fer what? With the Baby Bottle (and most other condensor mics on electric guitar, drums etc.) I need to put a pad in there so I use either the pad that's built into the micamp or put an inline pad right after the mic, usually 20dB is enough. It depends on where it's distorting...some mic amps put the pad AFTER the input stage and if that's clipping it won't help. Rule of thumb is get the pad as close to "the source" as possible. Sometimes I'll break 'em out for strong vocalists too, can never have enough pads around!

Back to the clipping thing...yah...sounds like it might be the problem. Keep in mind there's a couple three different "standards" and ways to hook stuff up. Your typical 1/4" cable can be either balanced (aka TRS or Tip Ring Sleeve) or unbalanced like an instrument cable, in which case you'll have just tip & sleeve or TS. The main difference between them is that when moving from balanced to unbalanced, not only will you spill coffee but there's a 6dB drop in gain. Operating levels are either +4dBu (pro standard) or -10dBu (consumer standard) and they WILL NOT play nicely...you need a balancing box to get from one to the other and deal with the impedance issues & stuff. Keep in mind those are referenced to 0dBVU which is different then 0dBfs. They've all gotta play nicely together or things will 'distort' and sound wonky.

Rather then getting adapters just get the right cables. Going through adapters just adds noise and they usually fail at some mission critical moment. They're good problem solvers but it's a kludge, not a long term solution. Or just get some raw cable & wire your own TRS to XLR cables...that's what I usually do, make 'em as I need 'em...especially if I need something wonky like XLR M to XLR M or balanced TRS to unbalanced XLR. Markertek is a good source & Redco Audio is great too.

Books - Modern Recording Techniques is good. Some people I know spent LOTS of money going to college for this stuff and were handed that book. The Yamaha Guide to Sound Reinforcement is also like a bible...lots of technical explantions that are pretty easy to understand.

Peace,

 

[Brow]

Re: Mic overload to the board--what am I doing wrong?

Thanx for the reply to my question J Moose

I mentioned the DI box as I know they had Pad switches on them, and neither my pre-amp at home nor the desk I use at the studio have built in Pads on them.

Thanx for the info.

Craig

 

[75lespaul]

Re: Mic overload to the board--what am I doing wrong?

Okay, I'm going to get the cables instead of the adapters. I just got back from GC and they didn't have them, then I just read your post when I got back. I've learned so much in the past few days between this forum and stuff I've looked up on the web I feel like my head is gonna burst. Fortunately there wasn't much up there to begin with so threshold wasn't reached, hee hee.

Again Moose, thanks for all the advice. I'm following it to a "T". :bigthumb: :friday:

 

[J Moose]

Re: Mic overload to the board--what am I doing wrong?

Okay, I'm going to get the cables instead of the adapters. I just got back from GC and they didn't have them, then I just read your post when I got back.

Guitarget SUCKS!!! Really, about 90% of the time I go in there I end up walking out empty handed or it's some crazy special order...even when I bought my DAW from them I think the only piece they had in stock was a $250 piece of software on a $7K system. Everything from the Motu stuff to the computer had to be special ordered and they wanted to charge me shipping too!!! Buncha' scuz balls IMO. Besides, they're the WORST place to buy stuff like cables. Get 'em from Markertek or RedCo and not only will they be better cables but they'll be about 1/2 to 1/3 of the cost!


Brow - The pad on DI boxes is usually for taking speaker level down to mic level...something on the order of 40-70dB and then there's a bunch of other stuff in the path too. Resistors & maybe (probably) a step-down transformer. Get some in-line pads & be done with it! Shure & Audio Technica make varible pads which cost a little more but are worth the bucks.

 

[75lespaul]

Re: Mic overload to the board--what am I doing wrong?

I'm not a big fan of GC either, but they are the only music store for about 10 miles except for one that always seems to be closed. There used to be a few smaller ones that always had great stuff and competitive prices but they went under.

 

[75lespaul]

Re: Mic overload to the board--what am I doing wrong?

BINGO!

Great levels now with the mics close to the amp. NOW I can mess with placement for good tone. Thanks everyone for leading me by the hand here.:smoker:

 

[J Moose]

Re: Mic overload to the board--what am I doing wrong?

So which thing solved the problems?

The 1/4" TRS cables, in-line pads or both?

Either way that's great!

 

[75lespaul]

Re: Mic overload to the board--what am I doing wrong?

It was the cables and the inputs I was using. I got the XLR to 1/4" TRS cables and plugged them into inputs 5-9 on my card instead of 1-4 which were 11db instead of 4db. The change was dramatic.