MIDI & Guitar Synthesizer Q's

C

cato

New member
Is a guitar synthesizer like the Roland GR-20 or 55 with a hex pup synonymous with midi? I mean the Japanese founder of Roland invented midi but no matter where I look nowhere in the description of various Roland synths is the word midi mentioned. Individuals using Roland guitar synths talk about them in the context of midi but Roland doesn't use the term in their info about their guitar synths.
So do a Roland GR 20 with a GK3 pup, a midi keyboard, and a midi guitar (with built in hex pup) all have the same general midi capabilities?
Can someone help me if I'm missing something?
I know MIDI is a complex format and Communications technology that goes beyond controlling end communicating between musical instruments and equipment, but I'm restricting my scope to basic guitar midi applications like early Al diMeola stuff.
Thanks!
 
Re: MIDI & Guitar Synthesizer Q's

As far as I understand it, the pickup itself does NOT output midi, but the unit it's attached to may have that capability. I believe the GR-55 unit does - I have one, but I've never explored that side of the machine. Interested to hear more learned input.


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Re: MIDI & Guitar Synthesizer Q's

I have played MIDI guitar for over 20 years. You also need a midi interface, which converts the hex output from the pickup to midi information. The GR series does this, but only after it triggers internal sounds. If you want to trigger notes from a keyboard, sound module, or VST instrument, it is better to use a unit like the GI-10 or GI-20 (or if you can find it, an Axon unit). Don't forget about using a full range speaker to send the output to- guitar synth sounds pretty bad through a guitar amp.
 
Re: MIDI & Guitar Synthesizer Q's

Mincer said:
I have played MIDI guitar for over 20 years. You also need a midi interface
Click to expand...
Yes

which converts the hex output from the pickup to midi information.
Click to expand...
Yes, the hex pickup is simply a CV to MIDI converter. The control voltage is supplied by the magnets and converted to MIDI via the pickup's dongle.

The GR series does this, but only after it triggers internal sounds. If you want to trigger notes from a keyboard, sound module, or VST instrument, it is better to use a unit like the GI-10 or GI-20 (or if you can find it, an Axon unit). Don't forget about using a full range speaker to send the output to- guitar synth sounds pretty bad through a guitar amp.
Click to expand...
You could always insert a MIDI THRU box in front of the GR and make sure your MIDI keyboard is outputting on the same channel as the hex pickup. I should think that the problems you will encounter will be many, however. The GR is optimized for use with the hex pickup and not to be used as a general synth module. I would think the biggest issues will be how the GR will interpret velocity and aftertouch ... its internal processor is looking for the guitar's note range, not a keyboard, so it may not play every note and may have some very weird velocity issues if the sensitivity is different for each string, which you need to do when calibrating the hex pickup.

For the cost of a MIDI THRU box, however, it's worth experimenting with. May yield some very cool results ... or may yield complete rubbish. But that's the beauty of the experiment, to some extent! :)
 
Re: MIDI & Guitar Synthesizer Q's

VinceT said:
As far as I understand it, the pickup itself does NOT output midi, but the unit it's attached to may have that capability. I believe the GR-55 unit does - I have one, but I've never explored that side of the machine. Interested to hear more learned input.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

you have a 55 with the hk3 pup? how do you output it if not by midi?
 
Re: MIDI & Guitar Synthesizer Q's

Mincer said:
I have played MIDI guitar for over 20 years. You also need a midi interface, which converts the hex output from the pickup to midi information. The GR series does this, but only after it triggers internal sounds. If you want to trigger notes from a keyboard, sound module, or VST instrument, it is better to use a unit like the GI-10 or GI-20 (or if you can find it, an Axon unit). Don't forget about using a full range speaker to send the output to- guitar synth sounds pretty bad through a guitar amp.
Click to expand...

i looked up the GI series and i'm not clear on the difference between the GI and GR devices. could you explain in a practical way the difference? say i hook up my guitar to either with a gk3. what's the difference downstream? the the gk3 signals the GI to trigger a sound in another midi device hooked up to a speaker, whereas the gk3 triggers a sound in the GR hooked up to a speaker? am i close?
 
Re: MIDI & Guitar Synthesizer Q's

TwilightOdyssey said:
Yes
You could always insert a MIDI THRU box in front of the GR and make sure your MIDI keyboard is outputting on the same channel as the hex pickup. I should think that the problems you will encounter will be many, however.
For the cost of a MIDI THRU box, however, it's worth experimenting with. May yield some very cool results ... or may yield complete rubbish. But that's the beauty of the experiment, to some extent! :)
Click to expand...

modus thru box being say a GI series device? and practically speaking, the thru box's purpose would be to allow my access to more sounds and capabilities on another midi device or pc? am i understanding the difference between using my guitar/gk3 with a GR vs. GI series device?
 
Re: MIDI & Guitar Synthesizer Q's

take a look at dimeola's setup. since this is foreign to me, can someone tell me the how and why of this setup? he controls his gr30 with the vg8? what's the vg8 for? why not connect the godin to the gr30 directly? why do you need a vg88 if you have all the sounds available by midi? it just adds amp/guitar sound emulation?
so many questions.


f4893488fd94b9bc360299d51e79e573.jpg
 
Re: MIDI & Guitar Synthesizer Q's

related question here in case anyone is familiar with dimeola's sound... when i first started listening to dimeola in the 80's - before i knew he used midi and before he started using very clearly 'unnatural' non guitar midi sounds like on soaring thru a dream and world sinfonia - i noticed he had a very distinct high gain/dirt sound when playing with what i assumed was just a les paul and OD if not just cranked amp gain. i always swore it wasn't just very clean staccato with light palm muting. almost a very subtle electronic percussion sound when playing fast runs. like maybe the subtle sound in the lead in songs on tour de force live. that's probably the best example. some of it is phaser/flanger type effect stuff but most of it i can't figure out. if anyone is familiar with that sound, do they think it's not midi at all and just an LP and amp gain cranked? i don't know what his gear was at that point. i know he was playing LPs and i'm a Strat guy so maybe that's just the unique sound of LPs i'm not used to.
anyway. in case anyone is a dimeola junky like me.
thanks.
 
Re: MIDI & Guitar Synthesizer Q's

I think you are overthinking this a bit. MIDI experimentation is highly personal and unique, what works for one person's rig will not necessarily work for another.

Hex pickup converts CV to MIDI. I own the exact setup in the DiMeola photo above, but only have a VG88, not the VG8.

If you are not planning on gigging, there are other ways to do guitar to MIDI without having to purchase any hardware.

For your original question: Can the GR unit accept General MIDI commands, the answer is YES, I ran an FC-200 in front of the GR unit many times and used it to trigger pedal tones from the GR-30.

However, I think connecting a MIDI keyboard to the GR unit will yield less than satisfactory results for the reasons I stated above. Easer to just connect your keyboard to another sound module, which can even be an app running on your phone or tablet.
 
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Re: MIDI & Guitar Synthesizer Q's

The GR series has the sounds. The GI series is just the midi converter. You use the midi out jack of these half-rack units to go to the synth of your choice. As someone who used a fairly extensive midi guitar system, it is still essentially pretty clumsy and requires more gear than most guitarists care to learn to use.
 
Re: MIDI & Guitar Synthesizer Q's

Brian Moore made a true 5 pin midi guitar about 15 years ago. It had 5 pin midi in and out, but the breakout box to power it was tiny, and not really suited to live use- impossible to really add a hold pedal etc. The technology was from a company called MidiAxe, which also made their own guitars.
 
Re: MIDI & Guitar Synthesizer Q's

Mincer said:
Brian Moore made a true 5 pin midi guitar about 15 years ago. It had 5 pin midi in and out, but the breakout box to power it was tiny, and not really suited to live use- impossible to really add a hold pedal etc. The technology was from a company called MidiAxe, which also made their own guitars.
Click to expand...

Midiaxe did the tech for the original Parker Midifly. I should take the back plate off and take a gut shot for you guys. It looks like Data's head when they peal back his hair on Startrek.

12084570_2_l.jpg
 
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Re: MIDI & Guitar Synthesizer Q's

cato said:
take a look at dimeola's setup. since this is foreign to me, can someone tell me the how and why of this setup? he controls his gr30 with the vg8? what's the vg8 for? why not connect the godin to the gr30 directly? why do you need a vg88 if you have all the sounds available by midi? it just adds amp/guitar sound emulation?
so many questions.


f4893488fd94b9bc360299d51e79e573.jpg
Click to expand...

The descriptions in the image are self-explanatory:

The VG-88 models guitars and amps. That means his Godin nylon-string guitar can sound like a Les Paul, a Tele, a Strat, a White Falcon, or a Gibson 12-string Hummingbird, through a Dumble, or a JCM800, or a Plexi, or a Champ, or a TripleRec, without having any of those actually on-hand or on-stage.

While seemingly redundant, the VG8 does pretty much the same things the VG88 can do, although the 88 has a built-in expression pedal, which you would want for controlling volume, wah sweep, delay tempo, tremolo depth (Link Wray's "Rumble"), or any other parameter (gain, or even pickup switching ala Hendrix with the 5-way).

The VG-8 has more pedals than (and can therefore control more functions of) the GR30, but the GR30 does all the non-guitar sounds like woodwinds and brass and such.

As well, you can set the VG88 for one group of simulated guitar, pickup, and amp tones while the VG8 is set for a different-yet-complimentary group, i.e. Les Paul with PAFs into a Plexi on one and a Strat with vintage singles into a Tube Driver into a Fender Twin.


Another benefit of MIDI is having multiple sound modules dedicated to only one or a few instruments each. Since each unit has a limited amount of RAM (and usually not much as compared to a PC - I'd be surprised if anyone makes one with 4GB), a full orchestra with brass, wood, and strings of all varieties will not sound as good in a single unit as if you spread that out over 3 or 4 different modules dedicated to only a handful of instruments.
For example, you have 4 sound modules;
#1 has 2 alto saxes harmonized in 3rds, 3 tenor saxes harmonized in 5ths, and 2 baritone saxes an octave apart
#2 has 3 trumpets, 2 are doubled and one an octave below
#3 has 5 violins, 2 doubled and 3 harmonized across one octave, and 4 cellos
#4 has nothing but a Grand Piano and is set up for the highest level of articulation so you get all the notes, from the soft to the slammed

That's a 21-piece orchestra that, depending on the sound quality of the samples contained within the unit, can be controlled by one person, or a laptop running a MIDI composition, and would sound awesome.
And it all fits in a 4-space rack you can put in the trunk of a Kia Sorento.

Further, the layering of similar instruments still consumes the available memory of the unit, but contributes to a much fuller sound than a single trumpet blaring away.
 
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Re: MIDI & Guitar Synthesizer Q's

excellent article securb. very informative. i'm finding much of my confusion was coming from reading articles that seem to be using midi and guitar synthesizer interchangeably when clearly they're not the same thing. the people writing the information know the difference and are not intending the confusion but that's how my novice brain got tripped up. further, I was reading about Al DiMeola's set up just to get an idea about the subject since I know he uses midi, and I saw he uses what is referred to as a godin "midi equipped" guitar with the Roland guitar synthesizer; but then I look up the two godin midi guitars and I find out they have divided pups (in add to HBs) with a 13 pin (not midi) connector made to connect to a roland guitar synth. that just muddied things up.

i take it some roland synths like the 55 can output true midi signals functioning as a midi converter; but if divided pups like gk3's don't output midi signals, and rather need a converter, what signal is a gk3 outputting? just curious if there is an industry term for the gk3 signal before it's converted to midi. not critical. just curious.

also, roland says the gk3 signals are converted to midi by the converter attached behind the bridge, but if the signals are outputted via the 13pin connector to the 55, and 13 pin is not 'true midi', than what is the difference. midi signals are midi regardless of the connector facilitating the transmission, no? if the 55 accepts and transmits midi via its 13pin input and output, isn't it a true midi converter as well as a synth.

not overthinking; just breaking down the info i'm reading. fascinating learning process.
 
Re: MIDI & Guitar Synthesizer Q's

A hexaphonic pickup is actually 6 separate pickups in one; each string has its own pickup. I would imagine that's part of the reason why it needs so many pins going out from it to the synth module ... as for HOW it does the conversion, I couldn't find anything online but my guess it that is uses some type of technology which is older than MIDI but not synthesis: CV, or Control Voltage. There are different standards for CV depending on the synthesis used, but they all share one common trait: they take voltage generated from oscillations in the audio range and convert it into pitch and gate information. The hexaphonic pickup sends CV from each pickup which is then converted to polyphony for the synth engine to process.
 
Re: MIDI & Guitar Synthesizer Q's

DrNewcenstein said:
The descriptions in the image are self-explanatory:

The VG-88 models guitars and amps. That means his Godin nylon-string guitar can sound like a Les Paul, a Tele, a Strat, a White Falcon, or a Gibson 12-string Hummingbird, through a Dumble, or a JCM800, or a Plexi, or a Champ, or a TripleRec, without having any of those actually on-hand or on-stage.

While seemingly redundant, the VG8 does pretty much the same things the VG88 can do, although the 88 has a built-in expression pedal, which you would want for controlling volume, wah sweep, delay tempo, tremolo depth (Link Wray's "Rumble"), or any other parameter (gain, or even pickup switching ala Hendrix with the 5-way).

The VG-8 has more pedals than (and can therefore control more functions of) the GR30, but the GR30 does all the non-guitar sounds like woodwinds and brass and such.

As well, you can set the VG88 for one group of simulated guitar, pickup, and amp tones while the VG8 is set for a different-yet-complimentary group, i.e. Les Paul with PAFs into a Plexi on one and a Strat with vintage singles into a Tube Driver into a Fender Twin.


Another benefit of MIDI is having multiple sound modules dedicated to only one or a few instruments each. Since each unit has a limited amount of RAM (and usually not much as compared to a PC - I'd be surprised if anyone makes one with 4GB), a full orchestra with brass, wood, and strings of all varieties will not sound as good in a single unit as if you spread that out over 3 or 4 different modules dedicated to only a handful of instruments.
For example, you have 4 sound modules;
#1 has 2 alto saxes harmonized in 3rds, 3 tenor saxes harmonized in 5ths, and 2 baritone saxes an octave apart
#2 has 3 trumpets, 2 are doubled and one an octave below
#3 has 5 violins, 2 doubled and 3 harmonized across one octave, and 4 cellos
#4 has nothing but a Grand Piano and is set up for the highest level of articulation so you get all the notes, from the soft to the slammed

That's a 21-piece orchestra that, depending on the sound quality of the samples contained within the unit, can be controlled by one person, or a laptop running a MIDI composition, and would sound awesome.
And it all fits in a 4-space rack you can put in the trunk of a Kia Sorento.

Further, the layering of similar instruments still consumes the available memory of the unit, but contributes to a much fuller sound than a single trumpet blaring away.
Click to expand...

wow newcenstien. that's uber enlightening! self explanatory is in the eye of the midi expert beholder! I'm too green in my understanding of midi capabilities to have thought about using different controllers to control different functions of a synth. your illustration of different scenarios markedly enhanced my understanding of the subject.
thanks!
 
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