Mixing spkrs, Xpatterns (NOT gt75!), different cab pairings, etc - decent videos?

[Adieu]

Can't seem to find anything worthwhile... outside a few vids on adding 2 v30s to 1960A cabs and clones thereof (not interested). Youtube search seems rather weak for multiple keywords, or maybe what I'm looking for just isnt there.

Of particular interest:
*second hiwattage brandname speakers to pair with V30s,
*mixed or single type cabs that pair well with a cab of "Rola" 12-65's (bloody celestion sure did us a favour by NOT naming this speaker, thx a lot for making web searches such a pain)
*stuff to mix - top/bottom or xpattern - with 12-65's; goal to brighten this very clear and defined, but kinda dark and low-heavyish cab
*mixing eminence and celestion

...but really, any educational vids on mixing good guitar speakers would be very informative. Or sound only recordings of course. Any hints on where to look or pages with links?

Thx

PS or was an old metalhead I met a while back spot on to say that all the obfuscation with reloaded or entirely empty Marshall cabs on stages, the lack of info on speakers, and the weird interviews are intentional misinformation, because speaker choices and mixes are everyone's closely guarded secret sauce, at least in the metal scene??

 

[some_dude]

Re: Mixing spkrs, Xpatterns (NOT gt75!), different cab pairings, etc - decent videos?

I think it's because most people don't put a lot of thought into their speakers. They buy whatever cab matches their amp (which most of the time works out well) and that's the end of it.

And for those that do want to experiment it's an typically an expensive process...

And just because they want to experiment doesn't mean they want to Youtoob the whole experience.

For what it's worth, I hated mixing speakers within the same cab. IMO it made both types speakers sound worse than they would individually, which I attribute to the cab no longer working as a single unit. While the results were thicker there was a definite loss in definition and clarity that I didn't like.

Coversely, when I ran the same speaker pairings in two separate cabs side by side the results were great.

 

[Adieu]

Re: Mixing spkrs, Xpatterns (NOT gt75!), different cab pairings, etc - decent videos?

Hmm...after plugging in 3 diff speaker types into my 6262 (stock, 12-65, v30 - lucky so far, total spent on cabs and soeakers is just 250, all are housed and nothing wasted)... and after hearing the near identical 6505 heads at various GC's - i now always use as my store testing amps for similarity - with MG cabs (rocket 50s or some lowend junk), 6505 cabs, Mesa black shadow cabs, mesa v30 cabs, 1960a's (gt75s), jcm 70 cabs, pv xxx cabs, 6505 combos 212 (not bad) and 112 (huge turn for the worse) etc etc... i must say speaker type weighs in at nearly as much as guitar or amp choice (in case of utter crap or bad matches even more)

Guess if you have a less typical amp model you might never realize unless a buddy loans you a cab...



What separate cab mixes have you tried? That actually really interests me, mixing in cab vs out.... cant really move em around in 6x12 - ohms mismatch - 16s down below and 8s up top. But was wondering if putting an 8 ohm 12-65 next to the v30 and trading out one of the "15 ohm" 12-65s for a 16 ohm v30 into the 412 might not be better than getting a second v30 in the 212 combo... So likely closer tone (and possibly better mix) in combo standalone, but worse punch in sum @ 6x12?

...still leaning towards 2 v30s in combo for scream and screech, and leave the cab as 4x12-65 for added punch and to do the whole 12-65 low thunder thing it does so well. Two overspecialized separate parts is a pain, true, but its just they each do their one best thing SOOO well

 

[some_dude]

Re: Mixing spkrs, Xpatterns (NOT gt75!), different cab pairings, etc - decent videos?

I've mixed V30 (Mesa OEM), V30 (off the shelf Celestions), G12M-25, G12T-75, MC-90 and WGS Green Berets.

The two I tried in an X pattern were V30/G12T and V30/G12M-25. I didn't particularly like either of them, but I did like both mixes when they were in separate cabs.

I think the issue is the baffle board. When all 4 speakers are vibrating it the same way they support each other, whereas different speaker types want to vibrate the baffle differently and pull/push each other around due to the sealed back enclosure.

 

[Little Pigbacon]

Re: Mixing spkrs, Xpatterns (NOT gt75!), different cab pairings, etc - decent videos?

^ It probably doesn't help that all the drivers usually share the same air volume inside the cab, so that their peculiarities mix both inside and outside the box. Inside, the air being launched into action by the cones is doing the same thing that it's doing outside, except opposite polarity and with a different acoustic loading.

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: Mixing spkrs, Xpatterns (NOT gt75!), different cab pairings, etc - decent videos?

Vintage 30s and G12H30s seem to work pretty good together. They have the same magnet and similar cones. The V30 has in your face upper mids and the H30 has relaxed upper mids so the compliment each other well. But the H30 is of course 30 watts rms power handling, so it will be 30 watts x the number of speakers for the cab rating. Don't know if they have a high powered H30 now or not like the high powered GBs? If not you might consider the G12-80 modern lead.

I'm pretty sure your "pre Rola" 65s are 97db sensitivity so the high power GBs might mix well.

 

[MetalManiac]

Re: Mixing spkrs, Xpatterns (NOT gt75!), different cab pairings, etc - decent videos?

I have a Rola JCM era Cabinet loaded with G12-65's. Its the top cabinet. I use a bottom cabnet with greenbacks. Sounds okay to me. Ive heard that V30's pair the best with the G12-65's however.

I'll second the motion about G12h-30's and V-30's. I have a 70's JMP master era checkerbaord Marshall cabinet with two original G12H-30's I think two new V30's will fill that cabinet out nicely.

Ideally I also prefer the same speakers in the cabinet, but with rare, or scarce expensive old speakers, many of which by now have issues, thats not always an option.

I wouldnt be so quick to dismiss the G12t-75's. Bogner uses them (cant recall if crossed or alone) in his outstanding cabinets.

 

[jimijames]

Re: Mixing spkrs, Xpatterns (NOT gt75!), different cab pairings, etc - decent videos?

Well, good idea or bad I'm going to be trying a Mojotone greenback imitation (forget the model) and a celestion v30 in a cab designed for car subwoofers. I'll report back with the results when I get it up and running.

 

[Little Pigbacon]

Re: Mixing spkrs, Xpatterns (NOT gt75!), different cab pairings, etc - decent videos?

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the G12t-75's. Bogner uses them (cant recall if crossed or alone) in his outstanding cabinets.

That speaker does everything I want for jazz, and it's the Malmsteen sound, too.

 

[dr. ad]

Re: Mixing spkrs, Xpatterns (NOT gt75!), different cab pairings, etc - decent videos?

i appreciate the gt75 much more now that i've played a lot more speakers. i get that people prefer other speakers for other sounds, but they work well for clean sounds and you can hear a lot of detail through them with the right pickups.

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: Mixing spkrs, Xpatterns (NOT gt75!), different cab pairings, etc - decent videos?

My Silver Jubilee 4x12 originally came with G12T75s. I hated them for overdrive/distortion in a 4x12. Just too scooped. I swapped them out for V30s and liked the V30s a lot better for a few years. I expermented with G12H30s and mixes with the V30 but ended up going to G12M25 Green Backs and I'm probably done.

I still have 2 of the G12T75s that I have in 2x12. They seem to make a 2x12 sound way bigger than it should with their huge bottom, scooped mids and bright top.

I used the G12-65s somein the 80s. An excellent speaker. A lot like a Greenback but without any early breakup. I'm pretty sure its the lower sensitivity (97) compared to the V30 and H30 (100).

Can the OP post a photo of the G12-65s?

 

[some_dude]

Re: Mixing spkrs, Xpatterns (NOT gt75!), different cab pairings, etc - decent videos?

I hate standing in front of G12T-75s, but they produce a wicked chunk when recorded.

 

[Adieu]

Re: Mixing spkrs, Xpatterns (NOT gt75!), different cab pairings, etc - decent videos?

Vintage 30s and G12H30s seem to work pretty good together. They have the same magnet and similar cones. The V30 has in your face upper mids and the H30 has relaxed upper mids so the compliment each other well. But the H30 is of course 30 watts rms power handling, so it will be 30 watts x the number of speakers for the cab rating. Don't know if they have a high powered H30 now or not like the high powered GBs? If not you might consider the G12-80 modern lead.

I'm pretty sure your "pre Rola" 65s are 97db sensitivity so the high power GBs might mix well.

i DO like the samples I hear for V30/h30 mixes (one of the few pairings you *can* find vids for), buuuuut.... that would make my 6262 (120w monstrosity that it is) entirely unuseable without extension cab OR operate at a constant risk of blowing speakers.

Depending on your source, V30's seem rated 60-70 watts, so that side's good, but the H30 can't take 60 watts, unless it's as conservatively rated as the V30 (which USED to claim 30w until everybody and their grandmother stopped taking celestion's marketing gimmick there seriously). And as to mixing with the 65's (not pre rola, LABELLED rola - just calling them that to avoid confusion with the 65 whatever-backs, since this 12-65 thing has no name, and doesn't appear to be the reissue Heritage 65), well, seems kinda counterintuitive to put H30's in there, since what mixes well with the V30 is unlikely to be as good a match for the 65 --- they're veeeeery different beasts.

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: Mixing spkrs, Xpatterns (NOT gt75!), different cab pairings, etc - decent videos?

mixing speakers is fun for playing on your own but its not the be all and end all of complex tone. Yes they spund good when one is sniffing corks at home, but both for live and for recording they are not necessary.
When micing a cab live, 99 times out of 100 (actually make that 100 out of 100) you are using one mic on your cab. You have to choose your favourite speaker for the mic. The mic won't hear the blended sound cos its usually up against the grill cloth. Its best if your amp is eq'ed for that speaker and not the ones that are not being miced.
When recording, you have the luxury of using multiple mic's, but seeing as they all have their own sonic signature and different sound depending on where they are placed in the room, they pretty much do the job of adding complexity and multi-dimensionality making x pattern or mixed pair speakers redundant.
Because of all this, i reckon its best just to choose your favourite speaker, and eq your favourite amp to sound its best with it. Job done.

 

[Adieu]

Re: Mixing spkrs, Xpatterns (NOT gt75!), different cab pairings, etc - decent videos?

Can the OP post a photo of the G12-65s?

here you go!

EDIT: webpic, reissued heritage g12-65 (celestion faked it up to look just like the original it reissues, apparently due to premium used prices trumping their new prices giving their marketing boys a migraine)




I'm calling em "Rola 65's" for the Rola Celestion writing on the back (on made-today heritage models, too!), and also since they don't have a name & even manage to share the 12-65 code with that other 65, what was it creambacks I believe (even I keep confusing the code stamps for the two)??? mine seem likely to be the old 80s model, though it's really hard to tell with 100% certainty... the mounting bracket seems different than on modern speakers, the shape is totally unlike the ones they make today.

EDIT: i was actually 90% sure the rolas were not the same thing as the g12-65, but lol and behold... doublechecked, and yeah they are. OOPS. anyway, this here speaker is MSRP'd at a *monstrous* $250, sells at a still-humongous $165.... BUT can be had in *SOME* (not all, others are stuff like 12-70s from what I've seen) old Marshall JCM cabs used @ like $320ish per loaded cab. Beats the hell outta paying for the new ones.





SECOND EDIT: the back pic was fine, but I call bullsh!t on the front pic, that's not what I see on mine, and I oughtta know, since my cab has a metal grille. st00pid google musta mislabelled something, that cone don't look right... removing old front pic & posting new proper look front pic




...AND that back pic was the heritage. HERE is the real vintage look, note different lookin mount and same freakin label:





PPPPS ...final image is wrong, I'm too technologically inept to figure out a way to remove it entirely, it seems. Tried to delete the square-bracket {attach} thingie, but it just tacked it onto the bottom.

 

[Adieu]

Re: Mixing spkrs, Xpatterns (NOT gt75!), different cab pairings, etc - decent videos?

Hey guys am I missing something major here or what? Everyone's all "mic'ing this, mic'ing that", and maybe most of my experience seeing stuff live from front row is from my days in the backwards former Soviet Union... but WHY MIC???? do you really have to mic a 100+ watt full stack in small venue usage? I really don't recall ever seeing small clubs mic'ing anything when bands brought enough firepower of their own, just when they NEEDED the help?!



ON SEPARATE NOTE: do not wish to turn this into a discussion on the virtue of the gt75. i don't like it/i don't want it/i sold mine, don't want any more, ever. also, yes that's not my dislike thereof shining through, just the fact that WHENEVER YOU HEAR X-PATTERN, YOU GET LINKED TO gt75's.... the whole idea of this thread was to find links & accounts of OTHER mixes.

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: Mixing spkrs, Xpatterns (NOT gt75!), different cab pairings, etc - decent videos?

The G12-65 replaced the G12M25 Greenback in 1979 as higher powered version of a Greenback. It sounds almost the same as a Greenback but without much speaker breakup. It was the standard speaker in Marshall model 1960 4x12 cabs from 1979 up to about 1984. It is highly prized for its warm, clean tone, by such guitarists as Robbin Ford. The word is out now though and its harder to find good used samples for sale. It's a G12M meaning it has the same magnet and loudness as a Greenback. The V30 uses the H magnet and will be noticably louder, brighter, and tighter than a 65. To find the most suitable mates for 65s; you should look into used vintage 65s, re-issue 65s, high powered Greenbacks, Eminence GB voiced speakers with higher power ratings..ect..

Celestion speakers can use several different cones even on the same model speaker. Some with large dust caps and some with smaller caps. Jim at Scumback says that the wide dust caps have a bit more bass. The G12T75 uses the large dust cap on the 1777 lead cone. The G12T75 uses the T magnet which is a modern verson of the M magnet. However, the T magnet gives a scooped sound compared to the 65 and the Greenback 25s with similar cones. However, the loudness of the G12T is the same as the Greenback and the 65.

You probably don't want the G12M70, so cross that off your list. Its not compatible tone wise with a 65.

 

[Brow]

Re: Mixing spkrs, Xpatterns (NOT gt75!), different cab pairings, etc - decent videos?

Vintage 30s and G12H30s seem to work pretty good together. They have the same magnet and similar cones. The V30 has in your face upper mids and the H30 has relaxed upper mids so the compliment each other well. But the H30 is of course 30 watts rms power handling, so it will be 30 watts x the number of speakers for the cab rating. Don't know if they have a high powered H30 now or not like the high powered GBs?

i DO like the samples I hear for V30/h30 mixes (one of the few pairings you *can* find vids for), buuuuut.... that would make my 6262 (120w monstrosity that it is) entirely unuseable without extension cab OR operate at a constant risk of blowing speakers.

Depending on your source, V30's seem rated 60-70 watts, so that side's good, but the H30 can't take 60 watts, unless it's as conservatively rated as the V30 (which USED to claim 30w until everybody and their grandmother stopped taking celestion's marketing gimmick there seriously). And as to mixing with the 65's (not pre rola, LABELLED rola - just calling them that to avoid confusion with the 65 whatever-backs, since this 12-65 thing has no name, and doesn't appear to be the reissue Heritage 65), well, seems kinda counterintuitive to put H30's in there, since what mixes well with the V30 is unlikely to be as good a match for the 65 --- they're veeeeery different beasts.

The answer to both of these points is the Celestion G12H-75 Creamback

It's sold by Celestion as being a G12H-30 with more power handling. It's high on my radar as I also want a V30/G12H30 combination, but as I only use a 2x12 it wouldn't give me enough power handling for my 100w amps.

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: Mixing spkrs, Xpatterns (NOT gt75!), different cab pairings, etc - decent videos?

Some M magnets speakers to consider with 65s:

http://celestion.com/product/29/g12_50gl_lynchback/

http://celestion.com/product/26/heritage_series_g1265/

http://celestion.com/product/123/g12m65_creamback/

http://www.scumbackspeakers.com/bm_series.html

http://www.scumbackspeakers.com/m_series.html

http://www.scumbackspeakers.com/

 

[Adieu]

Re: Mixing spkrs, Xpatterns (NOT gt75!), different cab pairings, etc - decent videos?

The answer to both of these points is the Celestion G12H-75 Creamback

It's sold by Celestion as being a G12H-30 with more power handling. It's high on my radar as I also want a V30/G12H30 combination, but as I only use a 2x12 it wouldn't give me enough power handling for my 100w amps.

Celestion also calls the GT75 "eqd like a high powered greenback".... Uhm, YEAH. Dont believe me? Heck *I* wouldnt have believed me...but check out their site. Shocking stuff there!

Trust your ears not celestion marketers. Those guys are the worst kinda used car salesman. Or just clueless unprincipled n aggressive