Modded my HH Guitar with push pull split, concerns about phase and orientation.

[Antmax]

I'm pretty new to modding so bear with me. I have a Ibanez SZR that I changed pickups to JB and 59 humbuckers. The original pickups were unbranded but seemed to have duncan wiring with green and black/ red and white split in the middle position. Which on original pickups made both humbuckers split to the inside coils.

I duplicated this with exactly the same wiring only with the neck pickup rotated 180 so both inner coils would be split and Pickup north and south orientation meant the middle position was humbucking.

This weekend I decided to add a push/pull using a dimarzio diagram for my guitar, I converted the SD wiring colors from DM to SD.

The only difference is that the dimarzio doesn't have the neck PU rotated with the screws on the inside like mine does. So with the Push/Pull tone knob I have these combinations, which is really cool.

My question is basically, if I rotate the neck pickup 180 degrees so the screws are facing out to the neck and the pickup polarity will also be flipped, will the middle position still be humbucking and sound the same?

I'd just try it and see only I just changed $15 strings last week, and the locking tuners mean I don't have enough slack to remove and rotate the pickup to find out without changing the strings again.

It would be nice to rotate the pickup so the orientation including the logo is correct. I'm also wondering if I inadvertently put the pickups out of phase even though middle position is humbucking. It sounds slightly more shrill and less boomy than I remember before the push pull swap.

Sorry for the long winded post. I tried to put as much info up as I could to explain. Cheers...

 

[jeremy]

Re: Modded my HH Guitar with push pull split, concerns about phase and orientation.

rotating the pup doesnt change its polarity. you need to flip the magnet to do that.

 

[gregory]

Re: Modded my HH Guitar with push pull split, concerns about phase and orientation.

Rotating one pickup does allow inner coils to be combined without having to flip a magnet. When rotating, however, you want to use the Duncan splitting convention for the bridge pickup, which is to connect the red/white pair to the green wire (connected to ground). For the neck pickup you would need to connect the red/white pair to the black wire (connected to the input of the volume control) in order to split so the screw coil is active. This is assuming that you keep the the stock Duncan wiring: Black to hot, Red/White connected together, Green to ground for both pickups.

 

[Antmax]

Re: Modded my HH Guitar with push pull split, concerns about phase and orientation.

Looks like I'm almost there then. I'll order some cheap strings and in the meantime, I will read up on the wiring. I'm a complete newbie but will look into Seymour Duncan examples some more. See if I can understand what Gregory mentioned. I used the Dimarzio diagram because it was specific to my guitar and the Ibanez has that funky 12 connector 3 way switch that confused me. Once the cheap strings come I'll put those on with some extra winds, then I can slacken the strings and fiddle with the pickups and experiment more easily, flip the magnet. The guitar looks a bit funny with the logo upside down. Not that I notice most of the time.

Thanks for your tips guys.

 

[gregory]

Re: Modded my HH Guitar with push pull split, concerns about phase and orientation.

I don't see any issues with your wiring diagram if you wish to install the neck pickup so that the slug coil is nearest the neck and split the neck pickup so the screw coil is active (green to ground, red to hot; the black and white slug coil shorted by the switch).

If you plan on having the screw coil closest to the neck then follow the directions in my post below this one.

 

[gregory]

Re: Modded my HH Guitar with push pull split, concerns about phase and orientation.

I sent my last reply before seeing your latest post...

I used the Dimarzio diagram because it was specific to my guitar

You have the DiMarzio/Duncan conversion just fine for the bridge pickup.

I can [...] fiddle with the pickups and experiment more easily, flip the magnet.

If you flip a magnet then your pickups will be out of phase. To correct this I'd change the wiring for the neck pickup. Assuming you wish to keep the black and green connected (that would be easiest) then you'll need to connect the red wire to ground and the white wire to the input of the volume control. When switching to split, both the red/white and black/green pairs go to ground.

The guitar looks a bit funny with the logo upside down.

The logo can be removed without too much trouble, but you'd probably want to rotate the pickup so that the screw coil is closest to the neck.

Please re-read my previous posts. I have edited them since your last reply.

 

[gregory]

Re: Modded my HH Guitar with push pull split, concerns about phase and orientation.

Assuming you want to rotate the neck pickup so that the screw coil is nearest the neck, flip a magnet and use this diagram that I modified...

 

[Chistopher]

Re: Modded my HH Guitar with push pull split, concerns about phase and orientation.

If you want the middle position to be hum cancelling, what you should do is split the neck to the screw coil and the bridge to be split to the slug coil.

If you flip the magnet it will make the two pickups out of phase in the middle position, which is a very thin tone on coil split pickups.

If you do however want the middle position to be out of phase, you can also just reverse the hot and ground wires to do the same thing. The only difference is it won't be humcancelling. If you flip the magnet but still split the neck to screw and bridge to slugs, it will still be humcancelling.

Edit: Also, pickup orientation does not affect phase, as already stated. The only things that effect phase are which magnetic pole is under what coil and what direction the wire is going electrcally. A fun fact I found is that SD pickups are all wound the same direction, just the hot and ground are switched. And the coils are situated atop opposite poles of the magnet, so the two coils are RW/RP.

You may or may not know this, I just wanted to post it to expand on other readers general knowledge.

 

[gregory]

Re: Modded my HH Guitar with push pull split, concerns about phase and orientation.

[...]

I know we're all trying to be helpful, but I think your post will just confuse matters.

He wants to spit to two inner slug coils. IMO, his decision is an excellent choice. While it sounds a little better in 24-fret guitars, I recommend trying it if you haven't already. Whether he wants to keep the pickup rotated (see picture in the opening post) is up to him.

Hopefully you looked at the wiring diagram that I updated. It will give him the exact functionality he's requested in his initial post:

...although his wiring diagram has the push/pull wired to split when pulled (which is how I'd do it).

 

[Antmax]

Re: Modded my HH Guitar with push pull split, concerns about phase and orientation.

I know we're all trying to be helpful, but I think your post will just confuse matters.

He wants to spit to two inner slug coils. IMO, his decision is an excellent choice. While it sounds a little better in 24-fret guitars, I recommend trying it if you havent already. However(!), I've told him how to split to a screw and a slug as well. Whether he wants to keep the pickup rotated (see picture in the opening post) is up to him.

Hopefully you've read the entire discussion. If not, I hope you at least looked at the wiring diagram that I updated. It will give him the exact functionality he's requested in his initial post:


...although his wiring diagram has the push/pull wired to split when pulled (which is how I'd do it).

Thanks for all the help. I'm a newbie when it comes to wiring and easily confused, so the updated diagram is especially helpful and I appreciate the extra effort. The wiring I currently have does work, but sounds a little off somehow so I will update it to this one and flip the magnet as soon as my regular slinky strings turn up. I'll save the paradigm strings I was intending to try for next time when hopefully everything is in working order.

 

[Antmax]

Re: Modded my HH Guitar with push pull split, concerns about phase and orientation.

I managed to get enough slack on the strings to remove the pickup and flip the magnet, rewired the guitar to gregory's modified schematic, that swapped to the slugs on the inner coil after the rotation. Everything works as it should. Though I must admit, I like some of the sounds the out of phase tone was getting. Some really nice Peter Greene, Gary Moore sounds. Now the guitar sounds a lot more like my Les Paul.

Flipping the magnet was the trickyest part, a hairdryer on the backplate managed to soften whatever was making it stick and then it was easy.

I might have to get a B500 push pull for one of the volumes and see if I can add a phase switch.

Thanks for the Help and information guys, and that updated diagram worked perfectly, Cheers Gregory.

 

[gregory]

Re: Modded my HH Guitar with push pull split, concerns about phase and orientation.

Glad it worked out!