Modes and Chord Changes

[astrozombie]

I'm working on a tune with a friend, the song is in b major, from what I can tell, except that the bridge goes into an A Major, E Major, B major progression.

If A natural is not part of the B major scale, are we modulating the song so that A is the "root" for that section? The change feels like a Modal progression, I just don't understand the theory as to why this change works since the "A" in the B major scale is "Ab".

I'm working out in my mind what modes I could use to play over this section. I feel like this is the correct question for the information I want.

Thanks guys!

 

[Kamanda~SD]

Re: Modes and Chord Changes

First thought is to play B Mixolydian.

Why? B Mixolydian is B Major with a flattened seventh bringing that A# down to an A. (The A in B major is sharp not flat)

B Mixolydian - B C# D# E F# G# A

A Maj chord - A C# E
E Maj chord - E G# B
B Maj chord - B D# F#

Satisfies all the chords. there's many ways to approach this while soloing though. You could play mixolydian over the whole thing, just flatten the seventh when over the a maj chord, or go a chord based approach and play a different scale for each chord, or focus on the arpeggios

 

[Mincer]

Re: Modes and Chord Changes

B Mixolydian. It has an A in it. Think of the 3 chords as the I of E (E), the IV of E (A) and the V of E (B). However, the 'tonic' of your progression is B. So use the E major scale, and resolve your phrases to B instead.

 

[Funkfingers]

Re: Modes and Chord Changes

In the B Major scale, A Natural is the minor seventh. The major seventh would be notated as A# or, if you insist, Bb.

It is musically valid to use either but not both simultaneously. Well, not unless you require note cluster tricks.

 

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: Modes and Chord Changes

Yep, it's B Mixolydian. It can be difficult to spot sometimes from the I chord in another key because there is only that one half-step difference, but in this case the other chords give it away as their relationships jive with the major scale in E.

Using half-step modulations can be a lot of fun in a song, though, if you want to throw the listener off. I have a song that is in Bm and often has DMaj in it until the end, when we switch to Dm -- has a wonderful warping effect.

 

[Mincer]

Re: Modes and Chord Changes

Yep, it's B Mixolydian. It can be difficult to spot sometimes from the I chord in another key because there is only that one half-step difference, but in this case the other chords give it away as their relationships jive with the major scale in E.

Using half-step modulations can be a lot of fun in a song, though, if you want to throw the listener off. I have a song that is in Bm and often has DMaj in it until the end, when we switch to Dm -- has a wonderful warping effect.

I do this! I also use a minor chord all through the song, but end the song on a major chord. That is sort of surprising, too.

 

[Lazarus1140]

Re: Modes and Chord Changes

I really need to learn some theory. The only theory I know is the theory of relativity. For example, I theorize that the 23 year-old male I raised may be my son.

 

[Securb]

Re: Modes and Chord Changes

Glenn, one of the best pieces of advice I have ever received is, "every note works over every chord. It is all about how you approach or resolve the note." I would suggest working some chromatic riffs and patterns into the mix. And don't over think this. This is the time when you are building the arrangement play out of the box a little bit and try different things. You may want to start with chord tones to set the theme of the lead, once that is established don't be afraid to branch out.

 

[Mincer]

Re: Modes and Chord Changes

I wrote a few articles on basic theory in our blogs here.

 

[Mincer]

Re: Modes and Chord Changes

I do try to navigate complex progressions by nailing chord tones within a solo, and will use chromatics to connect them, but this is only after improvising with said progression for awhile, and navigating my way though it (and the mistakes that go with it). I do like to sound like I am playing in tune.

 

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: Modes and Chord Changes

Personally, I think playing in terms of 'which notes fit into this chord' is limiting and make my solo lacks that notes that catch people's attention. I understand modes completely but shy away from playing the notes that 'fit', but taking advantage of the 'outside' chromatics that conjures that feel of unease, yet sounds cool and out of this world, yeah like those jazz tunes...you know what I'm talkin' bout.

Clip?

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: Modes and Chord Changes

I'm working on a tune with a friend, the song is in b major, from what I can tell, except that the bridge goes into an A Major, E Major, B major progression.

I reckon if you put A, B and E all together you end up in the Key of E major. Reason being that E,A and B major are the three primary chords from the key of E.

I : E
IV : A (lydian mode)
V: B (mixolydian mode)

If A natural is not part of the B major scale, are we modulating the song so that A is the "root" for that section? The change feels like a Modal progression, I just don't understand the theory as to why this change works since the "A" in the B major scale is "Ab".

There is no Ab in the Key of B, but there is a G# (the enharmonic equivalent of Ab). The "A" in the key of B is actually A#. The Key of B has 5 sharps: F#C#G#D# and A#
However, if you are in the key of E, the A and B are purely the 4th and 5th respectively. The Key of E contains 4 sharps: F#c#g#d#

I'm working out in my mind what modes I could use to play over this section. I feel like this is the correct question for the information I want.

Thanks guys!

so for E, use ionian (the regular major scale)
for A use lydian (a major scale with a sharp 4th)
and for B use mixolydian (major scale with a flat seventh)

Alternatively just noodle away over all the chords in E maj, or E pentatonic maj.....or of you want to play the changes without getting to "mode"ey, then just use the E, A and B major pentatonics over each of the chords.

 

[astrozombie]

Re: Modes and Chord Changes

I reckon if you put A, B and E all together you end up in the Key of E major. Reason being that E,A and B major are the three primary chords from the key of E.

I : E
IV : A (lydian mode)
V: B (mixolydian mode)





There is no Ab in the Key of B, but there is a G# (the enharmonic equivalent of Ab). The "A" in the key of B is actually A#. The Key of B has 5 sharps: F#C#G#D# and A#
However, if you are in the key of E, the A and B are purely the 4th and 5th respectively. The Key of E contains 4 sharps: F#c#g#d#



so for E, use ionian (the regular major scale)
for A use lydian (a major scale with a sharp 4th)
and for B use mixolydian (major scale with a flat seventh)

Alternatively just noodle away over all the chords in E maj, or E pentatonic maj.....or of you want to play the changes without getting to "mode"ey, then just use the E, A and B major pentatonics over each of the chords.

Great information! Although I believe i accidentally with held vital information

Here's how the tune goes:

the 1st part of the tune is a standard blues progression in B.

The chords are B13, E9 and F#9

I used to play these as 7th chords: B7, E7 and F#7.

the song has a section where we lean on a variation of a "A" shape B major chord.

I riff between this chord and B major with "A" in the bass (lift finger off 2nd fret)



Then we go into A Major, E major and Bmajor .

I was soloing over this using B major pentatonic which is where I usually start out in my jams with my bassist.

So during this section, most of the time I'm playing in B Ionian. Sometimes I slip in a minor 3rd.

 

[Securb]

Re: Modes and Chord Changes

Then we go into A Major, E major and Bmajor .

I was soloing over this using B major pentatonic which is where I usually start out in my jams with my bassist.

So during this section, most of the time I'm playing in B Ionian. Sometimes I slip in a minor 3rd.

What a lot of guitar players don't realize is when we are playing "rock" a lot of the times we are not playing minor or major. Your typical power chord is R-5- oct. In a lot of cases, the M3/m3rd is not being struck. Many factors will pull the chord major or minor. The bass line and vocals all play a big part. If this is an instrumental interlude, you can play around with different scale tones to pull the solo into a minor or major feel. With something like what you are describing I would play over the changes (that is my thing, it might not work for you).

Record the changes, crack a beer and throw everything but the kitchen sink at it until you have something you like. The lead doesn't have to make sense on paper it has to work in your ears.

 

[TwilightOdyssey]

Re: Modes and Chord Changes

The lead doesn't have to make sense on paper it has to work in your ears.

I disagree with this statement 99%. The 1% agreement is in the fact that I agree with the sentiment, but totally disagree with everything else. Absolutely experiment -- but thinking that it doesn't 'have' to make sense musically is rubbish, in my opinion.

I agree with you on the fact that MOST rock/hard rock/metal eschews the use of the most colourful aspects of chord melodies: the 3rd, augmented/diminished 5th, and the 7th. I use these intervals all the time, but rarely in full chords; they are more likely played in diads.