Modes and other haromny-ish things

cream123

JustAskinologist
all right I'll say it up front: I have no idea about how to use harmony or much theory at all. So what are the different types of intervals and what do they do in a song? I know it's a lot to ask but please help me out here. I know a lot of different chords....sort of I'm just clueless on this stuff

Also how do I use modes? what do they apply to?
 
Re: Modes and other haromny-ish things

Don't feel bad. I have grandchildren older than you, and I'm still trying to figure it out. ;)
 
Re: Modes and other haromny-ish things

The single most useful thing I've learned in the past year is Modes. I know I'm light years behing most people learning that stuff, but tbh I never took guitar "seriously" until maybe a year and a half ago. Until then it was 'just-mess-with-random-stuff-till-it-sounds-right', but eventually I wanted to learn why it sounded right.

I cant help much, but what I can add is this. I look at modes as basically scales in a certain key that start at a different position. For instance A major (Ionian?) and B Dorian are the same exact notes. difference is that you start on B in the B Dorian and not A. I find there is a different "tone" or "feel" to the notes in the order/position you play them, hence where the name "mode" comes from. I'm sure this doesnt help much, but I just want to stress that (if you are really 14) and you start learning modes now and stick with the theory, you'll be 16 and pretty well off in the technical department. I wish somebody strapped me down and forced me to learn modes when I was younger, but I couldnt find a decent guitar teacher who was concerned about anything other than following a f*cking stupid ass mel bay book and doing twinkle-twinkle-little-F*CKING-star and getting my money. I'll be 20 in 7 days and really dont have too much of a grasp on modes and its a shame cause my music when I was 16/17 would have been MUCH MUCH better had I known wtf modes were and how to apply them.

So if it seems complicated at first, stick with it man!
 
Re: Modes and other haromny-ish things

glad to see you turning the setback of the BoB into a positive opportunity to channel yourself into learning .. good for you .. excellent moment of personal growth

i think that you are trying to sprint a marathon before you've learned to crawl ... bad idea to jump right into modes ... you first need to learn how chords are constructed .. not just how to put your fingers on the neck and know the name of the chord you are playing ... you need to understand the relationship between chords and the key taht they are part of ... then you need to understand how the notes of the key (e.g. major scale) relate to the chords

modes are used for soloing or writing melodies ... once you know the chords of a tune, you can possibly use modes to construct a melodic concept ... one hint about modes (for when you are ready) ... it is vital that you learn modes in a way that makes it an utterly irrelevant coincidence that B dorian and A ionian happen to have the same notes ...

do you know the 'spelling' of all the major, minor, and 7th chords?
can you use the spellings to construct chords in any key?
can you construct the notes of any major scale?
do you know all the chords that belong to any key?

these are the questions you want to have your head wrapped around before you deal with modes .... these topics will help you write better tunes

enjoy the journey .... you have made a great start
t4d
 
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Re: Modes and other haromny-ish things

Before we talk modes lets look at intervals. For our example lets use a C chromatic scale as a point of reference. Later you can transpose this knowledge to any key.

Chromatic scale in C: C C# D D# E F G G# A A# B

Now for a brief definition of the term interval. An interval is simply a measurement in distance between two notes. In order to measure we need to specify units of measurement. These units of measurement are usually stated in terms of half-steps (minor second) and whole-steps (major seconds).

Examples:
C to C# = minor second (half step), C to D = major second (whole step)
F# to G minor second (half step), A to B = major second (whole step)

So now that we understand our unit of measure, let's look at our chromatic scale and name all of the intervalic relationships that exist relative to the root note C.

C to C# = min 2nd / half step
C to D = maj 2nd / whole step
C to D# = minor 3rd / step and 1/2
C to E = maj 3rd / 2 whole steps
C to F = perfect 4th / 2 whole steps + 1/2 step
C to F# = augmented 4th / 3 whole steps (same as diminished 5th)
C to G = perfect 5th / 3 whole steps + 1/2 step
C to G# = augmented 5th / 4 whole steps
C to A = major 6th / 4 whole steps + 1/2 step
C to A# = (A# = Bb) minor 7th
C to B = major seventh

Given this information let us build some chords. First lets look at triads. By definition a triad is a chord (major, minor, augmented or diminished) that is comprised of three notes. However, once we've determined the relationship between the root and the third then we have enough information to name a triad. In other words inspite of the what the name implies, we can create triads with as few as two notes:

Examples using intervals:

1. C - E = C major triad because the third note G (the 5th) is omitted but is implied. The distance btw C and E is a major third thus making our triad C major.

2. C - E - G = a major triad also. this time the 5th (G) is included. The intervals envolved in constructing our chord include: C to E (major third) and C to G (a perfect fifth).

3. C - Eb = C minor triad because of the interval that exists btw the root C and the third (Eb) which is a minor third

4. C - Eb - G therefore is a complete minor triad consisting of a minor third(C,Eb) and a perfect 5th (C,G).

5. C - Eb - Gb = C dim because of the intervals btw (C and Eb) minor 3rd and (C and Gb (F#)) an augmented 4th which is the same as a diminished 5th.

Carry this line of reasoning out to include the 7th and you start to understand why we name chords the way we do. The symbols like Dmaj7, F#dim7, and C7+, D7b5 start to make sense. Once you have that down then proceed to study chords that include the harmonic extensions beyond the first octave (9th, 11ths, and 13ths). By then your chord construction should be down pat.

Remember to study intervals within melodies as well. Do this both horizontally and vertically. For example, take the melody of Mary had a little lamb and name the intervals between each two successive notes in the melody. This helps you see the relationship that exists horizontally between the notes of a melody.

Now look at the vertical relationship. Take each note in the melody and compare it against the chord thats being played at that very same moment. What is the relationship btw the note and the chord?

Example:

The chord is F major, the current melodic note is D. This note (D) is a major 6th in relation to the chord. This melodic note in combination w/ the Fmaj chord creates a new chord sound F6. Which is spelled F A C D.

The next melodic note is Eb. Eb is a minor 7th in relation to our F maj chord. This melodic note in combination w/ the F maj chord creates the chord sound F7 (dominant 7th chord form). It is spelled F A C Eb.

I hope I have shed some light.
 
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Re: Modes and other haromny-ish things

why is T4D always right.

Osensei... I wish I had someone to explain it to me like that when I was first learning...
 
Re: Modes and other haromny-ish things

We've had discussions like this on this forum for dayz at a time. They can get quite lenghty. First let me convey what I think modes are and what they are not.

What a mode is not (which should be obvious to most ppl):
1. A mode is not a melody
2. A mode is not a solo or an improvisation

What a mode is
1. A mode is a pattern of organization

A mode is a pattern of organization. Let's say we're playing a friendly game of cards. Let's say Spades just for the sake of argument. Once the dealer deals out all of the hands then what's the first thing everyone does. You guessed it! They proceed to put all of their cards in some order. Usually the card player will divide their hands into suits. Hearts together with hearts, clubs with clubs and so on. Then within each suit they will sort the card based upon their ordinal values. Aces before kings, kings before queens and so on.

What this sorting represents is a system of organization. But it would be idiotic for a card player to attempt to play their hand in the order that they sorted the cards right? Rather, the order in which the cards are played is determined by the players strategy and more importantly in response to the actions of the players opponents. Treat modes in much the same way. Don't expect to say, "I'm gonna use a D dorian!", and the play defga ....etc. A scale is not a melody.

Playing a bunch of stepwise patterns (ie modes) in an effort to stay in the right key or create some type of modal effect just makes you a scale player. Effective melodic treatment and meaningful improvisation requires much more thought input than that. What I'm saying is that you should learn to use modes as an organizational tool much like sorting a hand of cards in a game of spades. But please don't try to play them (modes) literally note for note! Too many ppl are doing that and it's boring as hell! :chairfall
 
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Re: Modes and other haromny-ish things

I don't think harmonization has been covered yet, so here goes.

Let's take C Major is an example, cos it will be much easier.

C D E F G A B

(or) Tone, Tone, Semitone, Tone, Tone, Tone, Semitone

Here are the notes of the C Major scale. Let's use the aforementioned 'Mary Had a Little Lamb'. In C

E D C D E E E, D D D, E G G. E D C D E E E E D D E D C

To play a harmony to it, you could start playing at the 5th to what you are playing. Start 5 steps up in the C scale (note, not just plauing the G scale, playing within C Major still)

The harmony is...

B A G A B B B, A A A, B D D, B A G A B B B B A A B A G

You can play at a 4th to it too, just start one down. It sounds completely different.

A G F G A A A, G G G, A C C, A G F G A A A G G A G F

From what I can tell, 4th and 5th harmonies are the most common.

If you have Guitar Pro, open it up and have a play. Tab out Mary Had a little lamb, then make it display the notes of the C scale, count up 4 or 5 steps and play the same melody, keeping the same gaps in between. Listen to how it sounds.

Also on modes. The way I look at it, C Ionian is C Major. D Dorian is just starting on D, the second note of the scale, but playing the notes of the C Major Scale. Next step up, Phrygian, you start one on the third note of the scale and play up, and so on.

C Ionian (Major) = C D E F G A B

D Dorian = D E F G A B C

E Phrygian = E F G A B C D (way cool)

F Lydian = F G A B C D E

G Mixolydian = G A B C D E F

A Aeolian = A B C D E F G

B Locran = B C D E F G A

I've chosen C cos it's easier, and saves me hitting the hash key a whole bunch of times, but it applies all over the fretboard.

Eg, E Ionian or Major (E F# G# A B C# D# E)

So G# Phrygian would be G# A B C# D# E F#
 
Re: Modes and other haromny-ish things

Before we talk modes lets look at intervals. For our example lets use a C chromatic scale as a point of reference. Later you can transpose this knowledge to any key.

Chromatic scale in C: C C# D D# E F G G# A A# B

Now for a brief definition of the term interval. An interval is simply a measurement in distance between two notes. In order to measure we need to specify units of measurement. These units of measurement are usually stated in terms of half-steps (minor second) and whole-steps (major seconds).

Examples:
C to C# = minor second (half step), C to D = major second (whole step)
F# to G minor second (half step), A to B = major second (whole step)

So now that we understand our unit of measure, let's look at our chromatic scale and name all of the intervalic relationships that exist relative to the root note C.

C to C# = min 2nd / half step
C to D = maj 2nd / whole step
C to D# = minor 3rd / step and 1/2
C to E = maj 3rd / 2 whole steps
C to F = perfect 4th / 2 whole steps + 1/2 step
C to F# = augmented 4th / 3 whole steps (same as dininished 5th)
C to G = perfect 5th / 3 whole steps + 1/2 step
C to G# = augmented 5th / 4 whole steps
C to A = major 6th / 4 whole steps + 1/2 step
C to A# = (A# = Bb) minor 7th
C to B = major seventh

Given this information let us build some chords. First lets look at triads. By definition a triad is a chord (major, minor, augmented or diminished) that is comprised of three notes. However, once we've determined the relationship between the root and the third then we have enough information to name a triad. In other words inspite of the what the name implies, we can create triads with as few as two notes:

Examples using intervals:

1. C - E = C major triad because the third note G (the 5th) is omitted but is implied. The distance btw C and E is a major third thus making our triad C major.

2. C - E - G = a major triad also. this time the 5th (G) is included. The intervals envolved in constructing our chord include: C to E (major third) and C to G (a perfect fifth).

3. C - Eb = C minor triad because of the interval that exists btw the root C and the third (Eb) which is a minor third

4. C - Eb - G therefore is a complete minor triad consisting of a minor third(C,Eb) and a perfect 5th (C,G).

5. C - Eb - Gb = C dim because of the intervals btw (C and Eb) minor 3rd and (C and Gb (F#)) an augmented 4th which is the same as a diminished 5th.

Carry this line of reasoning out to include the 7th and you start to understand why we name chords the way we do. The symbols like Dmaj7, F#dim7, and C7+, D7b5 start to make sense. Once you have that down then proceed to study chords that include the harmonic extensions beyond the first octave (9th, 11ths, and 13ths). By then your chord construction should be down pat.

Remember to study intervals within melodies as well. Do this both horizontally and vertically. For example, take the melody of Mary had a little lamb and name the intervals between each two successive notes in the melody. This helps you see the relationship that exists horizontally between the notes of a melody.

Now look at the vertical relationship. Take each note in the melody and compare it against the chord thats being played at that very same moment. What is the relationship btw the note and the chord.

Example:

The chord is F major, the current melodic note is D. This note (D) is a major 6th in relation to the chord. This melodic note in combination w/ the Fmaj chord creates a new chord sound F6. Which is spelled F A C D.

The next melodic note is Eb. Eb is a minor 7th in relation to our F maj chord. This melodic note in combination w/ the F maj chord creates the chord sound F7 (dominant 7th chord form). It is spelled F A C Eb.

I hope I have shed some light.


This is an amazing post. I printed it off because my computer chair has arms and isn't very easy to play in.
 
Re: Modes and other haromny-ish things

Just read robbie's post! It pretty much sums up how the modes are organized. Basically, you should know the cycle of 5ths and the cycle of 4ths. If not then why the hell talk about modes at this stage of the game. If you know the 12 major scales then modes are simply a subset of those. The same scales just starting on different notes.

For C maj we would normally go:
CDEFGABC

But if we played:
DEFGABCD

We still played C maj but we start on D instead of C. Thats all the D dorian mode is. D dorian is the dorian mode in the key of C. Get it? Do the same thing starting on E in the key of C and you get E phrygian.

Like this:
EFGABCDE

Do that for all of the seven notes in the major scale and you've just learned all of your modes. There are exotic scales that aren't discussed here though.

Learning the modes is far easier than learning when and how to use them. To really understand the use of modes on a sophisticated level we must understand the interplay between melody and harmony. Music after all, is a stream of sonic vibrations measured in nanoseconds that is the result of many sounds (parts) merging into one sound. This sound in turn is heard by the human ear as one sound and then deconstructed by the engine of human reason (the brain) into distinguishable parts.

It is at this level that the mind can pick out what the oboe is playing in a symphonic passage. So from a neural perspective the pattern is one of construction and deconstruction of elements (parts). They key to any decision we make therefore, must be founded in the knowledge that we do nothing in a vacuum. Whatever we play at a given moment is only part of the whole. It is the mind of the listener that deconstructs the whole and places more value on one component over all others.

This is contrary to the guitarists way of thinking. We possess some of the biggest egos in the music industry! :chairfall In the mind of the guitarist the schitz I'm playing is what matters mostest! Mode is therefore chosen based on a harmonic strategy that is engineered based on personal preference mostly.

Example:
I see a chord C7. I choose a mode from which I can create a melody to play against C7. I choose G Aeolian. Why?

To answer this question we must look at the two components. First let us examine the chord.

C7 - C E G Bb

Now let us look at the mode G Aeolian.
G A Bb C D Eb F

Now lets take each note of our mode and ask what if. What if I played this note against C7? What is the "one sound" that would result from this action?

For the chord C7:

If I play G from the mode then the listener hears C7.
If I play A from the mode then the listener hears C13.
If I play Bb from the mode then the listener hears C7.
If I play C from the mode then the listener hears C7.
If I play D from the mode then the listener hears C9.
If I play Eb from the mode then the listener hears C7(+9).
If I play F from the mode then the listener hears C11.

As you can see each note from the mode I've chosen either changes or re-enforces the overall sound of the C7 harmony. So if I'm playing a solo then every note I play has the effect of changing the chord into different harmonic colors. Once I understand this then I'm well on my way to being able to morph the music into any shape (color or mood) spontaneously. I can then choose which modes to use for melodic construction based on this knowledge.
 
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